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[Jadefox]

Hola, Fine Fish Folk.

I'm working on some Africa research, and I would be interested in hearing from anyone who has an opinion on marine ornamental collectors/exporters on either the east or west coast.

Thanks in advance.

[Jadefox]

Perhaps the following will spark some comments.

From an interview with someone (intentionally vauge until I can follow-up--sorry) on the ground in Kenya: "First of all let me say that Kenya should be banned on the world stage for exporting aquarium fish because most of our exporters break every law in the book. They collect way beyond what their licences allow for, are always collecting in endangered species and many items that are forbidden by CITES."

[SAreefer]

I have not seen any endangered species or cites listed livestock on any wholesaler list available from kenya.

Could you be more specific on which species this anonymous person is referring to?

[SAreefer]

double post

[Jadefox]

I have not seen any endangered species or cites listed livestock on any wholesaler list available from kenya.

Could you be more specific on which species this anonymous person is referring to?

This is obviously the question, as I don't think very many (if any?) species of either appendix I or II are exported from Kenya. Of course this calls the source's credibility into question. I have followed up. What's your impression of fishes coming in from Kenya in terms of health?

[SAreefer]

It'll be tricky to compare the health of fish from Kenya here and in the US. Shipping times is obviously much shorter for us and generally the health is not that bad. Selection on fish is poor though and the amount of different or desired species collected is not that fantastic. You do not have the variety you get from the indo suppliers. Health wise, it's not bad. Having seen a couple of collection stations the conditions livestock are kept it in is not that great and borders on appalling for some, but then again so do many other collection stations I have seen elsewhere on the globe

[Fish_dave]

Part of the confusion about what is an endangered animal is caused by the different interpretation of CITES rules by the U.S. and the E.U. The U.S. has ruled that soft corals on unidentified scleractinia are controlled under the CITES regulations as appendix II animals. The E.U. has ruled that if it is unidentified scleractinia that it does not fall under the appendix II clasification. Therefore Kenya is allowed to ship soft corals, mushroom on rock, and live rock to the E.U. without CITES permits yet can not ship the same animals to the U.S. due to the fact that they do not have CITES export permits. As far as I know hard corals are not shipped to either the E.U. or the U.S. as Kenya is not issuing CITES permits for corals. I am sure that some trade does occur to contries that do not require a CITES permit for import.

Dave

[Jadefox]

It'll be tricky to compare the health of fish from Kenya here and in the US. Shipping times is obviously much shorter for us and generally the health is not that bad. Selection on fish is poor though and the amount of different or desired species collected is not that fantastic. You do not have the variety you get from the indo suppliers. Health wise, it's not bad. Having seen a couple of collection stations the conditions livestock are kept it in is not that great and borders on appalling for some, but then again so do many other collection stations I have seen elsewhere on the globe

Thanks for this. Do you see a marked difference between different African countries in terms of collection, holding and exporting facilities and practices? Is Kenya markedly worse? What about a place like Cape Verde which is relatively affluent compared to other West African nations? Here in the United States people get excited about Africanus angelfish (Holacanthus Africanus), blue spotted triggerfishes (Balistes Punctatus), West African hawkfish (Cirrhitus atlanticus), and several butterflys, (among others), but, as you know, the reox in NYC en route to the West Coast (I'm in California) makes theses fihes expensive.

[Jadefox]

Part of the confusion about what is an endangered animal is caused by the different interpretation of CITES rules by the U.S. and the E.U. The U.S. has ruled that soft corals on unidentified scleractinia are controlled under the CITES regulations as appendix II animals. The E.U. has ruled that if it is unidentified scleractinia that it does not fall under the appendix II clasification. Therefore Kenya is allowed to ship soft corals, mushroom on rock, and live rock to the E.U. without CITES permits yet can not ship the same animals to the U.S. due to the fact that they do not have CITES export permits. As far as I know hard corals are not shipped to either the E.U. or the U.S. as Kenya is not issuing CITES permits for corals. I am sure that some trade does occur to contries that do not require a CITES permit for import.

Dave

Good point, Dave. Thanks

[PeterIMA]

Dave, Can you clarify your posting about soft corals on scleractinia? My understanding is that soft corals may be imported to the USA without CITES permits provided the non-living scleractine base rock is not large (less than the size of a quarter). Please clarify.

Peter Rubec

[Fish_dave]

Hello Peter,

I have heard that ruling also but in practice it is up to the inspecting officers to make the call. Within the last month there have been many confiscations by Fish and Wildlife of corals with small pieces of unidentified scleractinia attached. The rule that I heard was that the scleractinia had to be under 3 cm to not need CITES and if over 3 cm that it would need to have a CITES permit. The officer in L.A. was using 1 inch as the criteria but the exporter had used the 3 cm rule. They were close but Fish and Wildlife confiscated them.

Most of my soft corals need a base much larger than 3 cm so it is not an issue, we have them come with CITES permits. In my experience with bringing in soft corals from countries that do not issue CITES permits such as the Philippines it is much safer to mount or grow the soft coral on an artificial base that is not coral based. That way there is no question and the products come in with no problem.

Dave

[Vili_Shark]

I have not seen any endangered species or cites listed livestock on any wholesaler list available from kenya.

Could you be more specific on which species this anonymous person is referring to?

This is obviously the question, as I don't think very many (if any?) species of either appendix I or II are exported from Kenya. Of course this calls the source's credibility into question. I have followed up. What's your impression of fishes coming in from Kenya in terms of health?

I have seen quite a few Kenya stock lists, I have never seen a cites I or II animals there.

As far as health, I personally think that they are by far the very best fish Im receiving on a regular basis.

Also after checking with microscope by proffesionals, we never found any cyanide traces, we had some bacterial issues that were taken care by the supplier straight away.

I can not even compare these fish to Philipines /Vietnam/Indonesia/Sri Lanka.

About the soft corals, I heard that the Kenya authorities are giving hard times to the exporters these days, some exporters dropped soft corals already.

[Checker]

Also after checking with microscope by proffesionals, we never found any cyanide traces, .

OK, I'll bite. Just what do you look for to see if a fish has traces of CN?

[spawner]

I've been wondering the same thing.

[Vili_Shark]

Hi G,
No need to bite.
I dont think he can detect cyanide traces in 100%, it is not a black and white thing that he can get a firm result, but he is checking for seriously damaged internal organs with no other evidence for cause of death.

If you go to the bottom of what I was trying to say in my previous post is that Kenya fish are arriving with much less parasites compare to Philipines and Indonesia, what we do find is quite easy to deal with.

I also think the fish are less stressed, maybe due to better handling.

An adult Pomacanthus imperator coming out of Kenya will start eating usualy in about 6-7 hours after unpacking.
Zanclus cornutus are almost 100% eating dry food after few days of acclimation.

[Checker]

Can you explain or have the scientist explain how different a fish that has been damaged from CN looks like internally then one let's say that has been improperly decompressed but not to the extent of creating gas bubble or bursting of the swim bladder? Just curious how one can tell the difference in such a case.

This is the first I have ever heard of such a claim so excuse me if I poke and prod a bit

[Vili_Shark]

Can you explain or have the scientist explain how different a fish that has been damaged from CN looks like internally then one let's say that has been improperly decompressed but not to the extent of creating gas bubble or bursting of the swim bladder? Just curious how one can tell the difference in such a case.

This is the first I have ever heard of such a claim so excuse me if I poke and prod a bit

Im few thousands Km from that guy, so it's a little bit difficult.

So you're saying that you can tell that fish were caught by cyanide only if you see the fisherman squirting the reef? there is no other way to suspect such a case?
I'd like to hear what do you personally think.

[Checker]

Can you explain or have the scientist explain how different a fish that has been damaged from CN looks like internally then one let's say that has been improperly decompressed but not to the extent of creating gas bubble or bursting of the swim bladder? Just curious how one can tell the difference in such a case.

This is the first I have ever heard of such a claim so excuse me if I poke and prod a bit

Im few thousands Km from that guy, so it's a little bit difficult.

So you're saying that you can tell that fish were caught by cyanide only if you see the fisherman squirting the reef? there is no other way to suspect such a case?
I'd like to hear what do you personally think.

I'll await your reply to my question(s) before answering yours as I find answerring a question with a question to be akin of "dodging" the question at hand, aka not useful in a conversation outside politics But in short, no, I never said that nor even remotely implied that. My question was simple and to the point You yourself are a few thousand miles from me and you attempted to reply