Reefs.org Forums

[dizzy]

Jeremy,
I think Wayne has been channeling Frank Lallo.

[GreshamH]

Peter that is pretty high mortality. Correct me if I'm wrong but something like 17 die for every one that makes it to market. Are you absolutely certain that is a fact?

I can vouch for it and 17 is very very conservative as I have heard 50.

How can you vouch for it? You honestley have no credibility in this area.

"Heard" means nothing at all, we're looking for numbers derived from actual scientific studies

Science is fine Gresh but there is nothing like being on the ground and finding out what is truely happening.

I have more credibility on this issue than you, Gresh.
My on the ground discussions with those involved confirms the science.
Fortuneatley, the problems assoicated with capture and holding are solvable.
In the short term aqua-cultured are the best bet until the problems are solved, hopefully soon.

Yah, OK

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
You made my year

When you learn to spell let me know and I'll take you serious

Have you ever bred BC? Are you on contact with the breeders? I am, every day nearly

Do you own a tank? Do you, or have you, ever worked in the trade? Gimme a break, quit posting such dribble!!!

[GreshamH]

Jeremy,
I think Wayne has been channeling Frank Lallo.

I thought that was Peters job though? It must be a Canadian thing since both are Canadians

[naesco]

Naesco,

Thanks so much for your contributions to this thread.

Unfortunately, with absolutely zero past or current involvement in the trade of marine ornamentals there are some folks here is this community that might take your comments somewhat lightly.

I respect your efforts and hope that you continue to stay involved. All good teams have people cheering for them on the sidelines, out of play.

Warmest regards,

And you think that owing a small LFS in some southern backwater town entitles you?
Why don't you have the courage to post your credentials as others in this forum have done.

[PeterIMA]

duplicate posting deleted

[naesco]

Wayne,

When exactly did you go visit the collection zone of this particular species of fish? Or does "on the ground" mean telephone?

No not the telephone. On the ground as opposed to diving in the collection zone and speaking with the fishers.
Jeremy, because of my concern for this species I visited Indonesia on a couple of occasions. I spoke to industry types who had visited the collection zone, viewed the problems and came up with solutions. I spoke with several and they were in agreement that the problem was related to collection and handling, so, I was not just one persons opinion.
It is great that some small steps are being taken by local industry to find solutions. Expect more improvements in the future.
Be assured that the problem is real and not just some dated scientific research opinion.

[JeremyR]

Good, I'm glad that your contacts came up with solutions.. now we don't have to worry anymore.

[Fish_dave]

It is amazing that I was in Indonesia, spoke with several exporters who handle Bangaii cardinals, spoke with collectors who catch Bangaiis, watched shipments come in of Bangaiis, and over the course of several days saw tanks of Bangaii cardinals in both Jakarta and Bali and I come away with a very different perspective than others posting in this thread. Probably if I had spoken with research people whose livelyhoods depend on solving a problem ( either real or made up to fit the circumstance ) I may have had a totally different perspective on the Bangaii cardinal problem.

The biggest problem that I have seen first hand is the tight packing of cardinals to lower freight costs. They are not that hard of a fish to keep alive if they have been transported properly.

Dave

[PeterIMA]

Dave, I know that you are telling the truth as you see it. However, it might be that you are only seeing one part of the COC (the exporter faciities). It is not clear to me that this applies to the COC at the point of collection.

In any event, until the industry takes action, the scientific community (like Dr. Vagelli) has more credability with IUCN and perhaps later with CITES. Hopefully, the Indonesian government such as the Banggai fisheries district (which presumably is part the Indonesian Department of Marine Affairs and Fisheries-MMAF/DKP) will conduct their own surveys, as described at the beginning of this thread, and report on their findings. It was also stated that a management plan for the Banggai Islands was under development, and hopefully this will be based on accurate data.

Peter

[Fish_dave]

Peter,

To be clear I am not saying that the DOA numbers on Bangaii cardinals are acceptable. What I am saying is that I have not seen nor can I logically believe that the mortality numbers being stated by research folks are correct. There is mortality, I have seen it, but what I have seen is more like 5 to 10 % along 3 main supply sources that are involved. Collector, broker, exporter (total mortality closer to 30% or less). When packed and shipped properly I see 1 to 2 % DOA on arrival in the states and not more than 5 % mortality (generally less) during the 7 to 10 days that I have custody of the fish. I think that a good logical case could be made that there could be as high as 35% mortality from the time of collection to the arrival in tanks in the states. More mortality than that and the economics start to fall apart. What I have seen in the field also generally back up this assumption.

What I don't like is the inflated collection numbers and the huge mortality percentage of 90 % being thrown around by researchers and hobby authors as correct and absolute. I don't believe it and I don't see how a reasonable person can view the economics at a 90% death rate and think that the numbers could be true.

There is plenty of room for improvement and I have never said anything negative about the folks actually working to help improve the mortality numbers. It is the crazy numbers thrown out there by the research people looking to fund a new grant that I don't like. I do think that the Bangaii mortality numbers are higher than the industry average and there are some procedures that could be quite easily implemented that would help lower COC mortality numbers.

Regards,

Dave

[Caterham]

What I don't like is the inflated collection numbers and the huge mortality percentage of 90 % being thrown around by researchers and hobby authors as correct and absolute. I don't believe it and I don't see how a reasonable person can view the economics at a 90% death rate and think that the numbers could be true.

Very well said. I agree 100%. The numbers just don't add up.

[rgbmatt]

The numbers used by John Tullock in his Aquarium Fish paper are published numbers used in scientific papers by Dr. Vagelli and others. The fact that more than one scientist has published similar data in peer-reviewed papers makes these numbers facts. Your opinions are not scientific facts.

If you go back into the discussions we had on RDO about two years ago, you will see I also used these numbers (like the estimate of 900,000 Banggais harvested per year out of a population of about 2 million fish). No one disputed them then.

Peter,

Do you have a citation for the 2 million fish population estimate?

I've read some papers by Dr. Vagelli and others about rates of harvest and mortality, but I've never seen a standing stock estimate anywhere in the literature. The studies I've seen have not used nearly enough survey sites to even begin to estimate the species' population and make no pretense of doing so.

As people here have pointed out, 900,000 per year from a population of 2 million is impossible. Unless this fish is far more productive than we give it credit for, the fishery would not have lasted this long.

[DustinDorton]

I haven't bothered trying to buy wild banggai cardinals in at least a year. We got tired of experiencing 90 to 100% mortality on every wild banggai shipment we ordered in previous years. Our mortalities usually started a few days after we got them in and drug out for 2 months or longer.

I don't have any hard numbers in front of me, but I can personally attest to the 90% + mortality. I wish it weren't the case, I would love to find some healthy ones.

[Thales]

The fish become sexually mature around 6 months to a year, and can produce fry regularly every 5 or so weeks (3 weeks mouth brooding, and two weeks recovery time before breeding again) with each spawn producing approx 15 fry which could prolly support the 900000/year number.

[PeterIMA]

This thread seems to be divided between one or two trade people that deny there is any problem with overcollecting or with mortality at any part of the CoC and those willing to admit there may be a problem.

Basically, all BCF removed from the population can be considered to have died (since they no longer contribute to the population) whether they live or not.

I tend to agree (with Dave) that BCF are a valuable resource that can benefit local collectors and the local villages. So, something needs to be done to rectify the problem at that level of the CoC.

I believe that the delayed mortality throughout the CoC is pimarilty due to the fact that the fish get exposed to low levels of ammonia that damages their gills. The clubbing of their gills contributes to delayed mortaltiy (DAA in the case of the buyers).

Just because Dave gets good BCF (properly handled and shipped to Jakarta by air) does not mean the majority of fish are shipped to the exporters this way. Most BCF are held in plastic bags at the villages for at least a week and then shipped to either Bali or Jakarta by boat (again in plastic bags). Hence, they are exposed to ammonia that accumulates in the bags before they reach the exporters. Of course this is also the case for other marine aquarium fishes, that also experience delayed mortality (such as that mentioned by Ferdinand Cruz with respect to many holding/export facilities in northern Bali). An example of this is the research done by Christian Schmidt who traced fishes arriving in northern Bali and held at an exporter's facility in Denpasar (southern Bali). The fishes (not just BCF) experienced high delayed mortality (40% over a 5 day period in Denpasar) despite being held under optimal conditions.

Keeping the BCF in optimal conditions (higly aeriated, clean water) at the retail level may help. The use of antiobiotics may help. But, I believe that many of these fish die even under those circumstances.

I have received BCF in Florida from the village of Les situated in northern Bali, The first shipment experienced high mortalty in my facility (all died in about 2 weeks) in Saint Petersburg, Florida. Ferdinand Cruz then provided the collectors with shipping chemicals that adsorb (neutralize) ammonia in plastic bags. This was used by the net-collectors that go from Les to Sulawesi by boat. When they used the chemicals in the shipping bags, the mortality (on all species) coming from Sulawesi to Les dropped from 43% to 2%. LIkewise, the mortality in the holding facitlity in Les dropped to less than 3%. I received a shipment of net-caught BCF (shipped with the same chemicals) that all lived in my holding tanks in Saint Petersburg over a six month period. So, I contend that the use of chemicals by the collectors and during shipping overseas can help to alleviate the delayed mortality problem.

Sincerely,
Peter Rubec

[Fish_dave]

I think that I can agree with most everything that Peter wrote in the post above. My contention all along is that the largest killer of Bangaii Cardinals is poor handling exposing the fish to high ammonia levels. This can happen at all stages of the COC and is particularly sad to see happening to incoming fish to the U.S. due to extremely tight pack requests by U.S. importers. Something as simple as ammonia neutralizers can work wonders.

Dave

[swsaltwater]

The I guess my question is, if its easily fixed why not fix it. I would gladly pay more to get bangaiis that wont die.

[Fish_dave]

Well, it is not easily fixed, that is the point. There is so much price pressure put on this fish at all levels of the COC that it is difficult to break the standard of operation. There are 3 exporters in Jakarta that I know of that do care and have changed the way they transport and handle this fish. From my experience the fish from them have a much better survivability. I am sure that there may be more than these three but these are ones that I have personally seen their methods. I can not vouch for any source in Bali that I have personally seen better methods used but I do have one source that I have pack at the rate of 60 fish per box and their Bangaiis survive much better for me than from other Bali shippers that I use. Most Bangaiis come in to the U.S. from Bali and the big suppliers here of the fish request very tight pack on the Bangaiis in order to sell the fish cheap. When you see sub 5.00 Bangaii cardinals you can pretty much be assured that they got here in a very tight pack and that price pressure was put on suppliers to lower the export price.

Dave

[PeterIMA]

With regard to the 2 million BCF population estimate, I will reread the papers by Vagelli and others to determine how they arrived at this number. It has been several years since I read these published papers. I also have other documents that are not published that I will review.

Peter

[Thales]

http://www.iucnredlist.org/details/63572

Population:
The earliest known population survey (2001) identified P. kauderni on 16 out of 37 islands searched. Average densities in suitable habitat at three sites within the Banggai Archipelago were approximately 0.03 fishes per m² (Vagelli and Erdmann 2002). Based on these census data and calculations of the total available habitat, the species was estimated to have a total population size of 1.7 million fish (Vagelli 2002). Additional surveys in 2002 and 2004 covering the entire Archipelago (50 islands, 159 sites) expanded the range to 27 (17 major and 10 minor) islands. Surveys done in 2004 found P. kauderni in most sites at densities of about 200 to 700 individuals/ha. The mean density based on census carried out in seven locations throughout its natural range in 2004 was 0.07 individuals per m², with a total population size estimated at 2.4 million individuals (Vagelli 2005).

Snip

Exploitation
The Banggai Cardinalfish is highly-prized in the aquarium trade (Allen 2000, Vagelli and Erdmann 2002, Kolm and Berglund 2003). It has been heavily exploited by the aquarium trade since its rediscovery in 1994. Despite claims that captive breeding has been successful, most aquarium specimens are still captured in the wild. Fishes are collected, mainly with nets, and held in floating nets until purchased by fish buyers who visit individual fishers at least 3 to 4 times a month. Collectors are paid a small sum (ca. US $0.01 to 0.025 in 2001) per fish by buyers who, in turn, sell to exporters for US $ 0.10 to 0.12 a fish (Vagelli and Erdmann 2002). Since 1999, the fishery has expanded from Banggai Island and Bandang Island to villages in the Bokan area, on Bangkulu Island, Labobo Island, and Peleng Island, with most collection occurring near their own villages. By 2001, at least 17 villages and 230 fishermen were involved in the P. kauderni trade (Lunn and Moreau 2004). An estimated minimum of 600,000 to 700,000 individuals were collected per year by local fishers prior to 2001 (Vagelli and Erdmann 2002, Lunn and Moreau 2002); current harvest rates are believed to exceed 700,000 to 900,000 fish/yr (Vagelli 2005).

P. kauderni are shipped primarily by boat from the Banggai Archipelago to national exporters via Tumbak and Manado and to a Bali exporter via Palu, and also direct to Bali exporters. An estimated 115,000 fish/month were transported on the Tumbak–Manado route, 3,000/month along the Palu to Bali route, and up to 10,000 fish/month were sent direct to Bali in 2001 (Lunn and Moreau 2004). These numbers are close to earlier estimates of 50,000 to 60,000 fish/month arriving in North Sulawesi for exportation, with total estimated trade for 2000 and 2001 of 700,000 fish (Vagelli and Erdmann 2002). Transhipment mortality is high because of lengthy travel times, usually 18 to 48 hours by boat (Vagelli and Erdmann 2002); no data on mortality from collecting or holding prior to transhipment appears to be available. The high mortality rate contributes to the disparity in prices paid to fishers and buyers (Vagelli and Erdmann 2002). A minimum of four aquarium fish export companies operate in Bali; others exist in Kendary and Manado (Sulawesi). he majority of P. kauderni captured in the Banggai Archipelago are destined for the international aquarium trade, with most exported to the United States, Europe and Asia. Wabnitz et al. (2003) and Lunn and Moreau (2004) further document the aquarium trade.

In addition to the estimate of number of individuals collected and shipped reported in the assessment, trade surveys carried out by Lunn and Moreau (2004) suggest that a minimum of 118,000 Banggai Cardinalfish were sold each month by fishers in the Banggai Islands. Trade volumes are in all likelihood greater as this estimate only includes fish bought by Tumbak- and Palu-based buyers, not taking into consideration individuals collected and shipped from alternate locations, or lost to pre-sale mortalities in fishers’ holding cages (Lunn and Moreau 2004).

A recent study showed that, despite the use of non-destructive fishing methods, the fishery had a negative effect on fish density when sites with high fishing pressure were compared to sites with low fishing levels (Kolm and Berglund 2003). Fishing also had a significant effect on group size (halving of average group size where sites with high and low fishing pressure were compared), which may lead to strong negative impacts on individual fitness in the future (referred to as the Allee effect in the scientific literature) (Stephens et al. 1999, Stephens and Sutherland 1999, Kolm and Berglund 2003).

In addition to more detailed trade statistics to accurately reflect real trade volumes, regular monitoring of the fishery should be undertaken, particularly as studies seem to indicate that the expansion of the trade to new, previously unexploited areas is underway, moving outwards from Banggai Island to all of the major islands in the area. Lunn and Moreau (2003) also highlight that the pool of potential fishers could be large, particularly given that obstacles to entering the fishery appear to be minimal and alternative livelihood opportunities limited.