Reefs.org Forums

[aquaticvet1]

Thanks for the dialogue and I will admit you have done some good things in this industry. It is important to recognize that others ( excluding me) have as well. I would appreciate honesty and straight forwardness on everyone's part.

I think Rich and the others deserve better on their forum and we all should work to make this more constructive.

[KKohen]

Steve,
I would like to restate the facts of that were presented here during this discussion.

1) You had no communications with any retailer, but rather spoke directly to consumers to negotiate the sale and transport of Clarion Angels. You then packaged and shipped three fish cargo freight to Colorado, and the fish were picked up by a friend of mine who had agreed to accept delivery and house these fish for other hobbyists.

2) The care that was provided for these incredible fish was far from ideal, which could be seen clearly in the photograph that was displayed here and on other message forums. Your choice to save money and not use ASAP for the proper holding of these fish was evident to me, and I am sure others who read this thread.

3) Last but not least (I didn’t bring up Philippine fish you did if you recall correctly) your involvement with ASAP involved selling Philippine fish to retailers in both California and other parts of the US.

These were the topics of discussion that were brought up here and once again I appreciate you taking the time to respond to my questions.

Kevin

[cortez marine]

I agree and sticking to issues is a good way to do it I think.
If the response to an issue is to invoke the personal then a disservice is done to the issue and the thread that could have helped explain it.
For every ambush or unilateral attack there is a reciprical one coming behind it and so on.
Starting them is where the mods need to step in to police the playground.
People across the country sure don't know what happens personally but get the result of it which is the proverbial locked thread.
As I said, I appreciate a well stated difference of opinion and a good moderator to keep it fair and on topic.
Steve

[cortez marine]

Kevin,
You are wrong in three points in a row.

1) I sold two to Jake, an industry person ...where you get three I don't know. Check your sources before attacking people.

2. I used a better place then usual after my poor friends at ASAP closed down. Aquarium Concepts is the best shop in the area. You didn't know that? We processed 288 fish. We lost one ...it got away from us...touche! [ I will send him another one!]

3.I responded to your attack on my character and impugned yours in return. You don't like that I take it?

[KKohen]

Steve,

It is not my intention to attack you, your character, or anyone for that matter, and I am sorry that you feel that I have done so. I came to this forum to discuss some matters that were of concern to me, and you had responded to them accordingly.

Jake does not work for or at any retail store in Colorado or anywhere else in the US, and offered to accept delivery and temporarily house fish for two fellow aquarists. One of these aquarists posted previously in this thread. I apologize for stating three fish as opposed to the two Clarions that you had shipped; the third Clarion is Jake's personal fish that apparently was obtained from a pet store who acquired the fish from the initial shipment you had brought into the country earlier this year. Jake is a well respected hobbyist who is a benefit to the aquarium community with the articles he has written for publications and the lectures he has given at local and national events on aquarium keeping.

As I said before, in my personal opinion these fish were held in less than ideal conditions which could be viewed by all on public message forums.

Finally, when you worked for ASAP you did sell Philippine fish to retailers in California and across the United States.
Thank you.

Kevin Kohen

[Thales]

Actually Race
It went personal and was not moderated. In fact the moderator was the bigger instigator of the personal insults and attacks.
Steve

Steve,

Since you are so unhappy with the way this forum in run, perhaps you should no longer post on RDO.

Sincerely,

RR

[cortez marine]

The forum is run fine and most moderators do a good job.
Steve

[Thales]

The forum is run fine and most moderators do a good job.
Steve

Excellent - although I am confused because that doesn't seem to agree with what you were saying earlier. No matter! Now, if you could just get past thinking disagreement with you equals personal attacks and insults, and if you could stop side stepping discussions by questioning moderation of the forum when a mod/admin disagrees with you, we would be in business!

[cortez marine]

Disagreement is fine.
Much of the personal stuff is your doing and you do it too often to be a fair moderator..
All one has to do is read your initial comments in this thread to see what I mean. You helped to personify the issues and derail the dialogue.
Stick to the issues and stop w/ the personal agenda and we'll be fine.
Steve

[PeterIMA]

I think it is unfortunate that this thread has become a personal attack on Steve Robinson. Having known Steve for the past 23 years, I have the following comments.

I find it ironical that the person making the accusation that Steve is selling direct to hobbyists works for a company that does this.

Many real issues have been touched on (like the fact that cyanide is used to collect marine aquarium fish in the Philippines). Lets at least give Steve the credit as being the one who blew the whistle on this and for his efforts to stop this insidious practice by introducitng net-trainings to the Philippines and to other countries.

As far as how fish are marketed (through wholesalers to retailers or on weekends to hobbyists, or on-line directly to hobbyists, and other methods), I see the present crossing of lines happening all over the place. If Steve indavertently sold one or two clarionsa directly to a hobbyist (not a proven fact in my mind) I say so what?

Perhaps that is what is needed to make the wholesalers and the on-line retailers pay more attention to the real issues (sustainable collection methods and ensuring better quality fish). That is what EASTI is doing and that is what Steve has been doing through his association with ECO-EZ in PNG. I commend his efforts to help reform a disfunctional marine aquarium trade.

Petet Rubec

[KKohen]

Peter,

You have participated on this forum for many years and you should have a very clear understanding of why I came here to discuss the situation. The questions I presented had absolutely nothing to do with reform.

For the record, I do have the utmost respect for Steve's work back in the mid to late 80's. This was when the marine aquarium trade was taking off here in the US, and Steve's work with the IMA on net training programs in the Philippines, funded by the Canadian organization International Development Research Centre and implemented by Haribon Foundation and IMA- Canada, led to the creation of Alternative to Cyanide Use Project.

I also commend Steve on all of his hard work in Papua New Guinea where he along with some of the former MAC staff has made so much progress.

Regards,
Kevin Kohen

[aquaticvet1]

Selling direct to the hobbyist is not my concern, I do it and will continue. The difference is---------- I say I do it. I do not preach one thing then do something different, covering it with poetry. There is a word that begins with H to describe this behavior. I could go on and on about the inconsistencies in what Steve says he does and what he really does

----------------but a little reading will see his self admittance.------------

The bottom line is, Steve and others have personally made RDO the battleground for etail vs retail and used the forum for self posturing. That is wrong and disrespectful to the moderators. It should end today and the moderators should ban all of us who do not conform.

Perhaps Rich and Len can provide a new set of guidelines for the industry forum. It should not be retail vs etail. That has always been a lame and futile discussion.

[Thales]

Disagreement is fine.
Much of the personal stuff is your doing and you do it too often to be a fair moderator..
All one has to do is read your initial comments in this thread to see what I mean. You helped to personify the issues and derail the dialogue.
Stick to the issues and stop w/ the personal agenda and we'll be fine.
Steve

In my initial comments in this thread I applied the same same 'reasoning' you were applying to Kevin to you - often using your exact words. Instead of responding you claim I have a personal agenda and make it about me so you don't have to respond. That stuff is still sitting on page 3 if you care to actually respond to it - here is a link:
http://www.reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.p ... 67#1539967


Being a mod/admin doesn't mean I don't get to have my opinions. In fact, I did not moderate anything in this thread, except to split it which was a good idea and more administrative that moderation. I find it telling that the only time you question anything about the way this forum is run is when RDO staff disagrees with you, and then you only do it publicly which makes it feel like a tactic rather than an actual concern. As you know well, if you have a real issue with the moderation, even though I didn't actually moderate anything, there are plenty of RDO staff who are not me you can ask to look into the matter who will take me to task if they think I have stepped out of line.

[Ben]

Being an outsider here, I am just a lowly reefer, seems the issue people are having is Steve claiming one thing and doing another. FWIW, it seems to me if he sells 2 fish, direct to a reefer, its still just two fish. How many has he imported and sold through the "correct" chain of command. Again as an outsider to all this it seems he has imported a ton of fish and made a lot of wholesalers, retailers, everyone down the chain a lot of money. It seems from what I have read he laid a lot of ground work to get these clarions into the US, doesnt that cut him some slack.

If he was saying this is something he doesnt do, and does it once for someone he knows its one thing. If you could show he says its something he doesnt do, and can prove it is something he does on a consistent basis that a different story.

Of course I am just an end user and have no idea, but reading through this all, although a fun read, it does seem like there is a lot of inside personal agenda on both ends.

[swsaltwater]

It is an issue since a few hobbyist get the item cheaper and then pass on the word, pretty soon the 3500 Clarion becomes a 2000 Clarion and the product is devalued. The wholesalers, retailers, and collectors in tern loose profit and struggle. Same thing happened to most drygoods as a result of etailers. Most manufacturers that did not set MAP from day 1 regret it and they seem to simply not know what to do at this point since their products have lost value in the eyes of consumers. Chillers being one of the biggest examples. I think we will see more manufacturers go direct to stores and bypass the wholesalers that have taken out web sites to sell out the backdoor for a few bucks more then they sell to LFS's threw the front door. At least once I caught a wholesaler with items cheaper on their etail site then the wholesale list.

[Thales]

Being an outsider here, I am just a lowly reefer, seems the issue people are having is Steve claiming one thing and doing another. FWIW, it seems to me if he sells 2 fish, direct to a reefer, its still just two fish. How many has he imported and sold through the "correct" chain of command. Again as an outsider to all this it seems he has imported a ton of fish and made a lot of wholesalers, retailers, everyone down the chain a lot of money. It seems from what I have read he laid a lot of ground work to get these clarions into the US, doesnt that cut him some slack.

If he was saying this is something he doesnt do, and does it once for someone he knows its one thing. If you could show he says its something he doesnt do, and can prove it is something he does on a consistent basis that a different story.

Of course I am just an end user and have no idea, but reading through this all, although a fun read, it does seem like there is a lot of inside personal agenda on both ends.

I don't think its really personal agenda (but I can see how it looks that way), rather its about at lest 4 years of him not cutting others slack for doing similar things. It has been difficult watching him, and some others, drive people off of this forum with relentless negative posting from a position of moral superiority. Discussions in this forum have made the Sump look tame. What I think some people are jumping on is the idea that during the times he has been taking others to task for their lack of 'morals', he was in fact employed by at least one company that was doing exactly what he was and had been berating others for doing (there are several activities that fall into that category). There is lots of good work that Steve has done in the past, but IMO his consistent, intentional campaigns to specifically stop discussion and discredit those he didn't 'like' have hurt the industry, or at least discussion about the industry, a great deal. Its the reason why there are only 10 or less regular posters on this forum. This forum could be a place for real dialogue about the industry, but this potential has been squashed, IMO, over and over again by petty maneuvering that was clothed in moral righteousness - moral righteousness that turns out to have been at least partially empty.
Is that personal? I guess I would answer that by saying that anyone who did something similar would be taken to task in the same way, and in fact, have been over and over through the history of this forum, so it isn't necessarily a Steve specific issue.

[cortez marine]

........its about at lest 4 years of him not cutting others slack for doing similar things. It has been difficult watching him, and some others, drive people off of this forum with relentless negative posting from a position of moral superiority.

Like I said,
purely personal.
Rich would ban himself if he were more fair minded.
I would not respond in kind as there is apparently no issue w/ this guy but the personal ones and whats the point in hi-lighting his failings in kind?
Taking the low road on every contribution is not what the forum is for.
Steve

[Thales]

........its about at lest 4 years of him not cutting others slack for doing similar things. It has been difficult watching him, and some others, drive people off of this forum with relentless negative posting from a position of moral superiority.

Like I said,
purely personal.
Rich would ban himself if he were more fair minded.
I would not respond in kind as there is apparently no issue w/ this guy but the personal ones and whats the point in hi-lighting his failings in kind?
Taking the low road on every contribution is not what the forum is for.
Steve

This is another red herring - as well as taking one part of a post out of context. There is not now, nor has there ever been any RDO policy against questioning and individuals past actions, claims or postings. There have been many requests to keep such discussions civil. I think perhaps you are confusing the two. My original post on page 3, to which you still have not responded to, questions your past claims and applies your accusations of others to you - and violates no rule or request by RDO. Taking you to task on what you have said or done is only personal in the sense that it is about you.
If this were personal, in the sense that most people mean the term, I would have banned you.


Highlight all of my failings you like, I know what they are in this industry/hobby and even give talks about them. However, I haven't set myself up as the paragon of moral virtue for the industry while doing many of the things I have derided others for all the while like you have. That is the point. You claim the high ground, but you are just as 'dirty' as anyone else you have ever gone after but you never admit it, and will continue to obfuscate.

[cortez marine]

There have been many requests to keep such discussions civil

.
And...why not oblige?

Highlight all of my failings you like,

Why,
Why, behave the same way?
Of course not. We are not in the sump as others who speak like this would be.
Steve

[Ben]

Same thing happened to most drygoods as a result of etailers. Most manufacturers that did not set MAP from day 1 regret it and they seem to simply not know what to do at this point since their products have lost value in the eyes of consumers. Chillers being one of the biggest examples. I think we will see more manufacturers go direct to stores and bypass the wholesalers that have taken out web sites to sell out the backdoor for a few bucks more then they sell to LFS's threw the front door. At least once I caught a wholesaler with items cheaper on their etail site then the wholesale list.

This is nothing industry specific, this is something that happens in most industrys. I am in toys, and for a fast example one of my suppliers Melissa and Doug, who I paid 30k to in dec alone undercuts me to amazon all the time. I pay $50 for a wooden easel, retail it for $99. My rep at the company tells me this isnt going to big box stores, then I find out they are selling to amazon the same product for 25, and amazon retails it for $50 (my cost!) and offers free shipping. Dont I look like an ass to my customers when they compair. Yet next year I will continue doing a large $ amount of business through Melissa and Doug as I do sell a ton of their stuff, to customers who perfer customer service and support locally owned buisness.

As far as the rest, its not my place to judge, but of course everyone expects someone to practice what they preach.