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I believe Mandarins need a mature tank. How many months should a tank before getting one ? My current one is about 6 months old.

I know Mandarins feed on copepods but is this an absolute necessity? I have yet to complete my 45 Gallon slump which is filled with about 25 pounds of live rock but no light yet. Just what is gets from the main tank since it is adjacent to it. Can I keep copepods alive in the sump with out proper lighting ?

NO!!!! Do not do it!!

You will starve the little guy to death and feel horible about it. My tank is almost 1 full year old now and I like you thought that same thing. I wanted one so bad and didn't listen to everyone telling me that it won't work. The guy at the lfs told me that he would be fine. Just buy cyclopeze and put it in the current twice a week. This did not work! I tried everything all the way to buying caviar. $$$ None of this worked. And yes, I must have bought a bottle of live copepods once a week. He would eat them all up before they could reproduce. I watched his get thinner and thinner every week until he died.

I guess you might be able to get them going in the sump with live rock. As long os they have plenty of places to hide.

My suggestion to you. Put the mandarine idea on the back burner for a while. Buy a couple bottles of live copepods and chuck them in your tank. Wait a couple of months until you start seeing the pods all over your glass, on the rocks, etc. Then wait a little longer. Then, maybe you could add one into your tank.

Additionally, what is the size of your tank? I know there's a handfull of people out there that will argue me on this one but their wrong to an extent. Yes, I'm sure that people have had mandarines in nano's and they do fine, eating frozen food. Highly unlikely though. Most articles and websites will tell you that you need at least a minimum of 100 gallons per mandarin. from my experience, I agree.

The successful keepers of these little beauties have them in very large systems, often utilizing refugia only for filtration. Tank size is indeed a factor as it relates to both material for those 'pods' the mandarins need to live on, and physical space available for pod populations as well. I'd say that for me 100gals would be a minimum tank size, with a sump/refugium about 50% of the tank's capacity as a minimum. I would also want that tank to be at least one year old, and I would have very few, if any other competitors for the mandarin's food stocks.

FATTEST biggest mandarin I ever saw was when I worked at LBAOP in the coral lab. One of the head aquarists got something 500-700gals. to use as the aquarium's ONLY real reef display. The mandarin in that tank was easily as big as my hand, as as fat around as a polska kielbasa sausage, I swear to God. Big male, always showing off, just gorgeous.

I don't know how big your system is, but if it's less than 100gals, then I would start looking into other ways to provide food sources reliably for a mandarin. Even something like a 'fuge that's separated from the main tank, just to rear pods could work if its sufficiently healthy and populated.

What seamaiden said. 100g should be the standard size you think of with a mandarin. Plus the tank should be at least 6 months mature and there should be no competitors for the copepods the mandarin relies on. Oh, and in many ways it's the amount of LR that really counts. So this won't fly with a 100g tank that is really open, with relatively little LR, but might with a 90g that has lots of LR.

A mature tank isn't the answer for aquaria the size you have. You'll just have to food farm:
http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/sho ... post332069

jeffkeith_us wrote:A mature tank isn't the answer for aquaria the size you have. You'll just have to food farm:
http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/sho ... post332069

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I've always found "Pod piles" behind the main rock structure to be of great help.
Pile coral/rock rubble anywhere you can where it's not an eyesore, and the pods will breed here free from predation by fish.
Do the same in your sump.

I was lucky enough to have a mandarin that ate Mysis shrimp. But I think that is vary rare.

I've seen plenty eat mysis. The problem is that they cannot rely on a single food source for full nutritional benefit and health. So, mysis are a good stopgap measure, but it's really best to have a healthy, mature tank with a nice healthy 'pod' population.

Yes and no and maybe.

100g for a big male ? The fading just takes longer.

You need to get the Mandarin to eat either frozen or similar.
Has been a discussion recently over the forums about the mandarins : a Mandarin can go over in a few days a 250g tank easily in terms of pods. He just grazes and browses, eating them all day long. Pods dont stand a chance.
The only difference betweeen a 250 and a 50g tank is that with a 250g you have more time to introduce and coax him to prepared foods.
Mysis, Bloodworks, Coepods. The mix between frozen and live.
He needs to start eat prepared food. I have one for quite a while now in my Red Sea Max 130 and thats a 39g tank.
Know several people who have them for at least 2 year or more, spawning , in the same tank.
And last time that I try to keep one, in my 180g tank, he perished.
So tank size means bolloc#$ . Watch him get the food in the LFS. If he doesnt, hes good as dead.
One good tip that I found is instead of releasing him to the tank, keep him in a freshwater fish floating nursery, teach him how to eat there and THEN release him to the tank. Worked wonders for me

Tank size is one key factor. As is getting a fish that eats when you buy it. As does have a large amount of live rock (a large tank with the currently fashionable minimal amount of live rock will do no good whatsoever). A refugium, as large as you can manage, will also help, preferably with plenty of LR as well, LR rubble and a mix of substrate (fine to slightly coarser) to promote the proliferation of pods).

One other factor - adding the mandarin only after the tank has fully matured (at least 6 months, but probably more like a year). You'd probably also vastly improve your chances if you add no zooplankton consuming fish before you add the mandarin, but I doubt there's a hobbiest out there that will be willing to wait a year before adding their first fish...

They just shouldn't make the mandarin among the first fishes.

I am intrigued by the idea/practice of corralling the fish, for instance in one of those livebearer birthing traps, in order to force the animal to take other foods. If it works, that's fantastic, something I've not seen, and more people should know about it. I'd love to learn more, such as how 'foolproof' the method is, etc.

I'll give you a personal anecdote. I had a green mandarin in a established 300 gallon system for 3+ years. Broke that tank down eventually and placed him and a couple of other fish in a 70 gallon reef only to have it get very thin over the next 6 months and perished unfotunately despite taking small frozen / prepared foods such as oyster eggs, cyclopeeze and baby brine. Used basically the same rock, had fewer food competitors but did not have the same volume of rock or the attached refugium (75 gallons).

I'd say tank up 1 year, at least 120 gallons with lots of liverock and few other fish that have a simlar diet / feeding strategy (small wrasses, gobies, blennies etc.)

One of the fatter mandarins I ever saw was in a friend's 55g tank, one year old, with no direct feedings. It surprised the hell out of me until I saw the tank--covered in hair algae (and thus filled with copepods). Gross looking for humans, but paradise for a mandarin. This is a bit out of the ordinary, of course, but it just goes to show that it's impossible to throw out a tank volume or number of months of age as a recipe for mandarin success.

Good point. Hence refugia being a good addition if you don't want so much algae in the tank, I suppose.

I am defenatly no authority on Mandarians ,I would never go out to buy one with out at least reading on their food and habitat, I have raised three so far over the years and all in a 55 gall tank.

One lived 2 years, one lived 3 years and one didnt make it 6 months.


After reading the coments I would agree with most all of them , If I may add in the fact that you should have the means to also raise amphipods as well as copepods for their food, the mandarian seems to enjoy the young amphipods as well from what I have noticed, at least in MY tank.

I also have a shrimp hatchery that pnce a week I add eggs to and let them hatch ,, right inside the tank,, The damsles love it and seem to know whe the new ones are hatching.

I have one now in a 30 gallon tank ,,,it has been there going on 3 months, I have 3 other fish in the tank, ,,,all damsles,,,, 1 serpant star,,,,, several snails and one zenia coral cluster.

There is ample live rock and it is managed in a way that make it impossible for any of the fish to get into, I also have places for the fish to ocupy and hide out in..

It has a ssb 1/2 in or so deep .

I also do as sugested and that is I raise copepods in a seperate holding area, I use a 5 gallong round water jug with the top cut off and a air hoes with air stone on it that I can regulate the air flow.I put a bunch of old snbail shells and a bit of sand in the bottom, I also use tank water from water changes to add to the copepod tank .

So far so good, the little fella does seem to get hungry enough to eat some of the mysis shrimp that I add in the frozen mix , but like you guys said , he would rather pick pods off the rocks, When the lights are off I can see copepods swiming around in the tank,.

I started out with a coulture of several thousand in this tank , it was runing about 4 months when My daughter brough the fish over, some one told her they heard it wouldnt live and they wanted rid of it , they told her it cost too much to keep, of coarse she told them she wold take it because her dad raised them b4.

Not that I would heve turned down the chalenge and they are a wonderfully colord adition to the tank.

I lost the first two mandarians I had do to the issue we had with the tanks as I described in my first thread.

If you are considering raising one I would sugest to basicaly just allow them to aclimate slowly , they are verry slitary unless they chose not to be,, give them a few days with out disturbing them toomuch, they are also verry courious critters . make sure your tank can support the food they need and to allow them as many hiding places as possible ,,I have a good freind who has had 2 of them now for almost a year and so far so good .

One in a 55 gallon and one in a a 75 gal.

Also IMO,,I have no documentation or evidence,,,,If your tank is infested with bristle worms and or certain crabs you may not have much luck, I have noticed a mandarian likes to sleep after the lights go out ,, I know , thats when they come put in the wild!!!, the one I have now will actualy turns colors at night like a camilion lizard does,, when the lights are off , he looks like he is dead and decaying ,pittyfull looking ,,,,I never seen my others do this .
He / she seems to like laying in the sand or curled up in a quiet place in the rocks untill the lights cone on, I have no crabs or anything that will atack it while it is in this state in my thank .

Maybe a couple bristle worms but they seem to stay in the live rock, I have never found them in the sand bed.

I dont know if this helps , I just felt like comenting.

Bill