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by **Jadefox** » February 13th, 2009, 12:40 am

Hey, Guys.

I am soliciting some feedback on an article I am just wrapping up. My question is simple: When you hear somebody talk about his or her "secret supplier," what is your reaction? Are "secret suppliers" (to wholesalers or retailers) good for the industry? Local economies? Animals and ecosystems? Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

by **JennM** » February 13th, 2009, 3:40 pm

What do you define as a secret supplier?

Dry goods are dry goods... no secrets there. But often when a livestock seller has a great livestock supplier, they keep the info to themselves lest they have to share the "good stuff" with others.

If I tell you who my best supplier is, you might come in and buy up all the good stuff and I'll be left with less... etc.

Many of us had to find out by trial and error who the good ones are... so we aren't terribly forthcoming with sharing that, since livestock supplies have so many variables.

Other than that I'm not sure I follow the question. It's not that "secret" suppliers aren't above board - at least mine are on the up and up...

Jenn

by **jhemdal** » February 13th, 2009, 3:56 pm

Hehehe,

Wow that brings back memories - 30 years ago, of scouring wholesaler's used styros to try and figure out who they are dealing with...you know, they miss a bit of the label here, miss a bit there, eventually you can piece it together...but in the end, that information is pretty useless. I mean, what was I going to do when I learned who my wholesaler was buying from in Indonesia? C.V. Banyu Biru wasn't going to sell six boxes of fish to me anyway...

I LOVE the Fisheads Inc. boxes - kinda hard to tear the label off when the whole box is an advert for their company!

Jay

by **Thales** » February 13th, 2009, 4:01 pm

I think 'eeww'. I understand protecting sources, but I think it helps the 'bent' COC we have today.

by **JennM** » February 13th, 2009, 4:31 pm

Jay, that's funny - made me think about times when I'd be at the airport picking up fish and one of the other local shopkeepers would always come over to strike up a conversation and he'd be asking casual questions to see if I would let him know whom I was buying from.

I never took the bait, and it was funny to watch him try to crane his neck so he could see a label without making it obvious - but it was obvious so I'd move into his way before he could read it, without making my own actions look obvious.

Ah the cloak and dagger of livestock suppliers

Jenn

by **Jadefox** » February 13th, 2009, 5:51 pm

JennM wrote:What do you define as a secret supplier?

Dry goods are dry goods... no secrets there. But often when a livestock seller has a great livestock supplier, they keep the info to themselves lest they have to share the "good stuff" with others.

If I tell you who my best supplier is, you might come in and buy up all the good stuff and I'll be left with less... etc.

Many of us had to find out by trial and error who the good ones are... so we aren't terribly forthcoming with sharing that, since livestock supplies have so many variables.

Other than that I'm not sure I follow the question. It's not that "secret" suppliers aren't above board - at least mine are on the up and up...

Jenn

Thanks for your thoughts.

Yes...I am just talking about livestock--sorry I did not make that clear. I also am not suggesting that many/most are not on the up and up (although I suppose we need to define what the up and up is...legal versus promoting social and environmental standards that are commensorate with what we may like to see).

I supppose I am wonder if the "secrecy" can do more harm (to the industry, supplier, animals, ecosystems) than good (to the retailer's, wholesaler's bottom line). If there are suppliers who are better than others (and, of course, we know that there are), than should we not as an industry be supporting and empowering those suppliers in a transparent manner in the best of interest of the industry, the suppliers themselves, the animals and the ecosystems?

Thoughts?

by **Jadefox** » February 13th, 2009, 5:54 pm

jhemdal wrote:Hehehe,

Wow that brings back memories - 30 years ago, of scouring wholesaler's used styros to try and figure out who they are dealing with...you know, they miss a bit of the label here, miss a bit there, eventually you can piece it together...but in the end, that information is pretty useless. I mean, what was I going to do when I learned who my wholesaler was buying from in Indonesia? C.V. Banyu Biru wasn't going to sell six boxes of fish to me anyway...

I LOVE the Fisheads Inc. boxes - kinda hard to tear the label off when the whole box is an advert for their company!

Jay

Jay,

That's a great word image...lol. Then again, you could always just call up the FWS and use the old FOIA. :-)

by **Jadefox** » February 13th, 2009, 5:55 pm

Thales wrote:I think 'eeww'. I understand protecting sources, but I think it helps the 'bent' COC we have today.

I am imagining going to a car dealership and the salesman telling me that I should really check out this car he just got in from his secret supplier...ewwwww. :-)

by **JennM** » February 13th, 2009, 6:06 pm

In a perfect world, yes we should be promoting the good ones.

In the real world though, we all use whatever competitive edge we can.

In the example I used, the shopkeeper who was so desperately curious to see where my stuff was coming from, ran a store that was at least 10 times the size of mine (sales-wise, not square-footage wise - but they were probably 4 times the size of my shop). I was no threat to him - or his business - his store (which is now out of business - after he sold it) was at least 25 miles from mine, and I'm a tiny fish in a huge pond. He was the big fish... so I still chuckle wondering why he was so darned curious about where I was buying from... but I digress...

So if I'd told him I use XXXX because they have great stuff, he had a lot more buying power, and thus, could potentially buy up all the great stuff I would normally get. Honestly chances are he already knew and perhaps used my suppliers... he used a lot of them because he did a ton of volume, and I daresay some of the smaller suppliers I use might not have been able to fill all his needs... but I digress... I saw who he was using - their logo was all over the boxes

(NO it wasn't Fishheads - at least not that time - it was before Fishheads made those Nemo boxes...)

If I perceive my suppliers as an advantage (MY perceived advantage, which may or may not trickle down to the consumer) and I truly believe that what I buy is "better" (ie more ethical, more conscientious or "cleaner"/"greener" source), then I'm going to protect that because I didn't have the big bucks or other bells and whistles that he had.

So yes, it would be "greener" to have people promote suppliers that do it right... but it's not likely to happen for the reasons I've stated. Some folks aren't as protective of their info as I am. I tend to use smaller suppliers so there's less to go around than at the big box wholesalers.

Now one could turn that around and use such info to "out" suppliers who aren't playing by the rules or doing it right, but then it would become a legal liability, particularly when some accusations (ie cyanide-caught fish) would be difficult or impossible to prove - at least at this point in time. It's much easier and safer to sing praises to a good one, than to be critical of a bad one, on that I'm think we can all agree.

And at the end of the day, some shops or their management don't care. It's all about cheapest price, best selection and to hell with how they got there or how they were collected. IMO those are the ones that are enabling less than ethical practices to continue.

I learned a long time ago that the most expensive creature is a dead one, and that all goes along with how things are collected, handled and shipped. I will gladly pay a bit more to get something that has a better chance of longer term survival than something that is likely to be DOA, DAA or leave a bad impression with a customer because one too many died after purchase.

Jenn

by **Twisted** » February 13th, 2009, 9:10 pm

I have had a very hard time locating the names of a lot of wholesalers, good, or bad.
I have talked to store owners personally, and e-mails, and over the phone from every part of North america trying to find the names of wholesalers.
Very few will give you more then a single name, and typically it is the one they stopped doing bussiness with.

Unsure of why the secrecy especially with a store that would not create any sales loss for them since we are far away from them.

Thanks to this site, and only one person, yes one person on this site was the only one forth comming with names, and while they did give me some great info, none of them panned out due to difficulties with shipping to our location.

I actually found our current wholesalers through some very creative internet surfing.

And while I would normally be very forth comming with information I have found, I find it difficult to answer anyone else looking for wholesalers, only because I doubt they would do the same for me.

Would they not help me if I asked? Or is it just my experience with the more "experienced" store owners that has jaded my out look on others?

by **oasistropicalfish** » February 14th, 2009, 1:52 am

NO SECRET (We support them 100%)

Quality Marine
5420 W. 104th Street
Los Angeles, CA 90045

Telephone:
(310) 645-1107
(800) 565-1942

qualitymarine.com

by **SlipperMan** » February 14th, 2009, 2:32 am

Twisted I know where you are coming from.

I could never get any information on wholesalers so I did all the leg work myself. Granted I've never work with a BIG majority of those I found....at least I found some.

If you ever want to trade lists..... :lol:

Love the FHI boxes too. Funny seeing customers ask if they can order direct from them.

by **GreshamH** » February 14th, 2009, 4:50 am

Twisted wrote:Thanks to this site, and only one person, yes one person on this site was the only one forth comming with names, and while they did give me some great info, none of them panned out due to difficulties with shipping to our location.

It takes leaving the wholesale side for some to open up

Sorry they didn't pan out though, you're in a tough spot up there

by **Twisted** » February 14th, 2009, 10:45 am

You are right Gresham. the main reason a lot of the wholesalers that you led me to, and a lot of the ones I found on my own didn't pan out is due to my location.
Not problems with the wholesalers.

by **Jadefox** » February 14th, 2009, 1:01 pm

So when you are talking wholesalers, you are talking country of origin wholesalers? Or transshippers on the DL? Certainly the major wholesalers here in Southern California are no secret.

by **Jadefox** » February 14th, 2009, 1:34 pm

JennM wrote:In a perfect world, yes we should be promoting the good ones.

In the real world though, we all use whatever competitive edge we can.

Jenn, I completely understand and sympathize with your specific situation, and I am not in any way attacking that. Let's talk big picture though and in theory.

In the real world--a world where the marine aquarium industry increasingly comes under fire from a multitude of fronts and a world in which the ecosystems upon which the industry depends are increasingly threatened--is using whatever competitive edge we can in regard to procuring livestock good for the future of the industry and the health of the ecosystems?

I mean we are not talking about dealing in widgets here, and we're not talking about dealing with countries (often) where we can trust local governments/authorities to insure that local suppliers are on the up and up in terms of how they treat their collectors and workers and the ecosystems in general. When it comes to collecting, holding, packaging, and shipping marine livestock, not everyone should be able to hang a shingle out, should they? While some of the little start-up guys out there may be cheaper, and be able to get a unique product to market, do they really have the knowledge, resources and intent to grow a sustainable ( financially and environmentally) business model that will elevate them to self-sufficiency?

The flip side is that if that little guy really is good, shouldn't we (in the best interest of the industry, ecosystem and the little guy himself) want to help him grow his business by actively promoting it. I know of one small, solid supplier, for example, that is one retailer's go-to "secret supplier." He is working really hard to make ends meet, but with more buyers and more investment he could really take his business to the next level. The retailer (someone I really like, by the way) is, however, standing in the way of that happening because the retailer perceives that this supplier is his competitive edge and he isn't willing to give that up.

Thoughts?

by **swsaltwater** » February 14th, 2009, 2:34 pm

Secret suppliers no more, they are all calling LFS nationwide to scurry up business, when it was good maybe there was a few Gems out there that did not advertise at all.

by **AquaErik** » February 14th, 2009, 3:55 pm

So is everyone referring to US wholesalers? and the idea that there are secret suppliers in the US that other retailers do not know about?

by **Jadefox** » February 14th, 2009, 3:59 pm

AquaErik wrote:So is everyone referring to US wholesalers? and the idea that there are secret suppliers in the US that other retailers do not know about?

My question concerns suppliers and especially those suppliers in developing countries/island nations.

by **AquaErik** » February 14th, 2009, 4:35 pm

I believe most of the replies on this board are referring to US wholesalers and the majority of retailers in the current market do not deal directly with suppliers in developing countries/island nations.

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