Reefs.org Forums

[dizzy]

This is another PIJAC Alert......If you read this bill it sounds like it would stop a lot of animal sales including frag swap meets. Tennessee has introduced a similar bill with more states to follow.
http://www.pijac.org/files/public/CA_SB_1122.pdf

California Assembly Bill 1122 would make it illegal for a person to transfer, as a commercial transaction,
a live animal in certain public places. The bill also provides a range of penalties for violators. The
rationale for this bill revolves around increased reports of people selling dogs, birds and other pets in
unregulated public venues.

The Impact.
Under this legislation it is unlawful for any person to willfully sell, trade, barter, display, or offer for sale,
trade, or barter, or give away as part of a commercial transaction a live animal at any of the following:

• on any street;
• highway;
• public right-of-way;
• commercial parking lot;
• swap meet;
• flea market;
• parking lot sale;
• carnival;
• boardwalk; or
• any outdoor special sale

[Thales]

At least local reef clubs should be able to get around this.

[mwp]

Rich, I'm not so sure. I don't know, but is 'swap meet' specifically called out in the bill? Same with Flea Markets...such venues are not held on public grounds (which is what most of that list has) but they are still public venues...i.e. open to public attendance. How is a club hosting a swap going to 'get around this"?

(edit: I just looked at the PDF, and it most certainly seems that this proposal is specifically designed to outlaw events like frag swaps)

[Thales]

I didn't look too carefully at the proposal (no time) but swaps around here, by clubs that are NPO's, involve no commercial transaction and don't occur in any of the places listed in this thread. Also, frag swaps out here are not what I have seen in different parts of the country, and involve no selling or booths, rather, people putting corals into a 'pool' that everyone then takes turns choosing from with the express idea that this is for propagation and the spreading of lineage. It seems to me if 'swaps' aren't about money, are put on by NPO's, and take place in places that aren't on the list that they should be fine.
Now, I think the proposal is a bad one, but I do like the idea of getting away from people trying to make as much money as they can on a 1/4 inch piece of coral and moving to the idea of spreading the coral around so that we cant lose it all if a single tank crashes. Also, the 'Don't break the chain' program that BAR put together seems to go around this proposal as well.

[dizzy]

Thales which one of the following three exemptions do you think would get you around the law?


These restrictions do not apply to the following:
• An event held primarily for the auction or sale of agricultural livestock;
• A tax-exempt nonprofit organization founded for the prevention of cruelty to animals; or
• A public animal control department.

[Snailman]

How bout this:

All of the participants sell their frags to the store for a penny. Then the store sells them to other people for a penny (plus applicable sales tax). The event includes educational seminars about reefkeeping etc...

It looks like this law is trying to protect animals from being sold in unsafe hot conditions outside. It will be interesting to see how they describe a flea market and a swap meet.

[dizzy]

It is hard to say why this legislation has been introduced..................or what it might morph into.......but when you consider CA may ban plasma televison because of high energy use...........who knows? Better hope LED technology moves fast. BTW I heard a 50" plasma pulls around 300 watts IIRC.

http://articles.latimes.com/2009/jan/03/business/fi-tv3

Flat-screen TVs to face energy efficiency rules in California
Starting in 2011, state regulators want retailers to sell only the most energy-efficient models of power hungry LCD and plasma sets. The industry opposes the new rules and warns of higher prices.
By Marc Lifsher
January 03, 2009


That 52-inch, flat-screen television on the family room wall may have a terrific picture, but there's a big drawback: It's an energy hog.


State regulators are getting ready to curb the growing power gluttony of TV sets by drafting the nation's first rules to require retailers to sell only the most energy-efficient televisions starting in 2011.

The consumer electronics industry opposes the new regulations, expected to pass in mid-2009, and claims that they could remove some TVs from store shelves and slightly boost sticker prices.

But the California Energy Commission is looking for ways to relieve the power grid. Officials say the proposed standards, once fully in place, would reduce the state's annual energy needs by the same amount of power consumed by 86,400 homes.During a peak TV-viewing time when most of the state's TV sets are on, such as the Super Bowl, they collectively suck up the equivalent of 40% of the power generated by the San Onofre nuclear power station when it's running full blast. Televisions account for about 10% of the average Californian's monthly household electricity bill.

Some manufacturers could struggle to meet the new standards, particularly those that make plasma TVs. And the regulations could create a gray market, sending consumers intent on buying power-hungry models to Amazon.com and other Internet retailers based outside the state.

Television sales are growing by 4 million a year, and the vast majority are flat-panels. LCD -- liquid crystal display -- sets on average use 43% more electricity than conventional, picture-tube TVs, and larger models proportionately more. Plasma TVs, which command a relatively small piece of the market, need over three times as much power as bulky, old-style sets.

The regulations would be phased in over two years, with a first tier taking effect on Jan. 1, 2011, and a more stringent second tier on Jan. 1, 2013. Purchasers of Tier 1-compliant TVs would shave an average of $18.48 off a residential electric bill in the first year of ownership, the Energy Commission estimates. Tier 2 sets would save an additional $11.76 a year.

Over the years, California has pioneered similar tough standards for appliances, home insulation and food service equipment that eventually were adopted by the federal government and promoted to consumers with utility rebate programs.

[Snailman]

It is hard to say why this legislation has been introduced..................or what it might morph into.......but when you consider CA may ban plasma televison because of high energy use...........who knows? Better hope LED technology moves fast. BTW I heard a 50" plasma pulls around 300 watts IIRC.

http://articles.latimes.com/2009/jan/03/business/fi-tv3

Flat-screen TVs to face energy efficiency rules in California
Starting in 2011, state regulators want retailers to sell only the most energy-efficient models of power hungry LCD and plasma sets. The industry opposes the new rules and warns of higher prices.
By Marc Lifsher
January 03, 2009


That 52-inch, flat-screen television on the family room wall may have a terrific picture, but there's a big drawback: It's an energy hog.


State regulators are getting ready to curb the growing power gluttony of TV sets by drafting the nation's first rules to require retailers to sell only the most energy-efficient televisions starting in 2011.

The consumer electronics industry opposes the new regulations, expected to pass in mid-2009, and claims that they could remove some TVs from store shelves and slightly boost sticker prices.

But the California Energy Commission is looking for ways to relieve the power grid. Officials say the proposed standards, once fully in place, would reduce the state's annual energy needs by the same amount of power consumed by 86,400 homes.During a peak TV-viewing time when most of the state's TV sets are on, such as the Super Bowl, they collectively suck up the equivalent of 40% of the power generated by the San Onofre nuclear power station when it's running full blast. Televisions account for about 10% of the average Californian's monthly household electricity bill.

Some manufacturers could struggle to meet the new standards, particularly those that make plasma TVs. And the regulations could create a gray market, sending consumers intent on buying power-hungry models to Amazon.com and other Internet retailers based outside the state.

Television sales are growing by 4 million a year, and the vast majority are flat-panels. LCD -- liquid crystal display -- sets on average use 43% more electricity than conventional, picture-tube TVs, and larger models proportionately more. Plasma TVs, which command a relatively small piece of the market, need over three times as much power as bulky, old-style sets.

The regulations would be phased in over two years, with a first tier taking effect on Jan. 1, 2011, and a more stringent second tier on Jan. 1, 2013. Purchasers of Tier 1-compliant TVs would shave an average of $18.48 off a residential electric bill in the first year of ownership, the Energy Commission estimates. Tier 2 sets would save an additional $11.76 a year.

Over the years, California has pioneered similar tough standards for appliances, home insulation and food service equipment that eventually were adopted by the federal government and promoted to consumers with utility rebate programs.

When I got rid of my 90 gallon tank with 2x250mh's I purchased two plasma tv's. My electric bill did not change much at all. Those tv's suck some power. The LED tv's look promising but they are pricey right now.

[Thales]

Thales which one of the following three exemptions do you think would get you around the law?


These restrictions do not apply to the following:
• An event held primarily for the auction or sale of agricultural livestock;
• A tax-exempt nonprofit organization founded for the prevention of cruelty to animals; or
• A public animal control department.

Since the events I am talking about involve no commercial transactions, and don't take place in any of the locations listed, I am not sure if the law would even apply.

[mwp]

The thing is, all the swaps here in Chicago involve hobbyists purchasing table space from the host club. It's not just coral / frag swaps either...the GCCA has Cichlid Swaps (And Auctions - how does this effect an AUCTION????). There are also "reptile swaps" (and while I've never been involved in one, I've heard you can get some pretty sketchy (poor quality) critters at such a swap?). But now, consider this - even the Orchid Clubs have an annual orchid show, and there too, anyone can get a table and sell plants (although I believe they do come around and collect sales tax at the end if you don't have a TAX ID, and I'm not sure what they do about licensing. When I sold orchids on eBay, I needed a greenhouse license not because the State of IL wanted me to have it, but because other states I shipped INTO required it).

It's a strange thing...there is that fine line between hobbyist selling a few things here and there, and when something becomes a business where regulations and licenses really do come into play.

[dizzy]

It's definitely not just marine clubs that will potentially be effected. Your right about reptile and cichlid shows. Also bird shows, koi shows, cat shows and Pet Exposes. I know koi shows depend on the revenue from wet vendors to cover the costs of having the shows/competition. Bird shows are all about selling birds, reptile shows about selling reptiles too. And the Tennessee frag swap in Nashville wouldn't be much if out of state vendors didn't show up to sell acro frags, zoos, and acan frags. People won't travel from California and Wisconsin to give stuff away.

[Caterham]

If California is short on electricity then I have a solution that could work out pretty well for them.

The majority of the electricity in this country is the result of a simple steam cycle. Build a fire, boil water, capture the steam under pressure, blow it at a turbine generator and create electricity. Then capture the steam, pump the condensate back through the boiler and do it all again. Its a simple steam cycle. Here in Kentucky, we use coal as the fuel for the fire. Coal is readily available and has lots of energy in it.

Thus, the solution is quite simple. BUILD POWERPLANTS. Need some electricity? BUILD SOME MORE. If they think that coal is too dirty then just build them nuclear. Its really quite simple.

How can the Peoples Republic of California be in short supply of electricity? Amazing.

Sorry for the off topic post.

[GreshamH]

The thing is, all the swaps here in Chicago involve hobbyists purchasing table space from the host club. It's not just coral / frag swaps either...the GCCA has Cichlid Swaps (And Auctions - how does this effect an AUCTION????). There are also "reptile swaps" (and while I've never been involved in one, I've heard you can get some pretty sketchy (poor quality) critters at such a swap?). But now, consider this - even the Orchid Clubs have an annual orchid show, and there too, anyone can get a table and sell plants (although I believe they do come around and collect sales tax at the end if you don't have a TAX ID, and I'm not sure what they do about licensing. When I sold orchids on eBay, I needed a greenhouse license not because the State of IL wanted me to have it, but because other states I shipped INTO required it).

It's a strange thing...there is that fine line between hobbyist selling a few things here and there, and when something becomes a business where regulations and licenses really do come into play.

A few of our CA clubs do proper swaps...meaning you bring a bunch, pool them as a group, a take turns picking from all the corals. no money changes hands really.

[Snailman]

The thing is, all the swaps here in Chicago involve hobbyists purchasing table space from the host club. It's not just coral / frag swaps either...the GCCA has Cichlid Swaps (And Auctions - how does this effect an AUCTION????). There are also "reptile swaps" (and while I've never been involved in one, I've heard you can get some pretty sketchy (poor quality) critters at such a swap?). But now, consider this - even the Orchid Clubs have an annual orchid show, and there too, anyone can get a table and sell plants (although I believe they do come around and collect sales tax at the end if you don't have a TAX ID, and I'm not sure what they do about licensing. When I sold orchids on eBay, I needed a greenhouse license not because the State of IL wanted me to have it, but because other states I shipped INTO required it).

It's a strange thing...there is that fine line between hobbyist selling a few things here and there, and when something becomes a business where regulations and licenses really do come into play.

A few of our CA clubs do proper swaps...meaning you bring a bunch, pool them as a group, a take turns picking from all the corals. no money changes hands really.

Corals are plants silly...

[GreshamH]

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