Reefs.org Forums

[GreshamH]

So hows this hit RC first?

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthrea ... genumber=1

http://www.reefbuilders.com/2009/05/07/ ... zed-usfws/

[Vili_Shark]

I dont know.
It actually hit reefbuilders first, but it doesnt matter, what matters is that USF&WL sucks so bad I can smell it till here (excuse my French).

[cortez marine]

According to Kiyoshi Endoh in his book Angelfishes of the World; published 2007

"Holacanthus limbaughi is observed around Clipperton Island far offshore of Mexico . The body color of adult Holacanthus limbaughi is a dull blue-grey. The most colorful period is juveniles that are essentially a blue variant of Holacanthus passer."

"Blue passer" , the Mexican term for the fish was claerly indicated on our boxes along with the fish counts.
The fish was declared and accounted for but they didn't accept the blue passer declaration.

The commercial shipment of fish arrived in broad daylight on Alaska Airlines and was inspected as expected by USFWS as always.
"Descretion and leeway" could be given, apparently is was not.

My most appeciated pm so far is " thanks for sticking your neck and to try and make this fish availble to the hobby."
This was the most amazing and thrilling expedition of my life. It will be hard to beat.
We must find fish in the sea....not in books or the internet. This is a far different and more expensive, risky and dangerous thing to do.
We were so excited and exhausted and never thought it would go down this way on this non CITES, non ESA, non IUCN, fish.
I had expected a different kind of homecoming. It makes one feel that we should step back from the edge and just play safe all the time.
This may have a big effect on the possibility of going after rare [ but locally abundant ] fishes in the future.

The "mis-declaration on the name " is the sticking point and things are still pending.
Ahh, but what an adventure.
Whale sharks, real sharks, giant mantas, turtles, whales, huge lobster and I was witness to a dozen hours of observing the behavior of the H. limbaughi.
They took the fish away but the experience will alway be there. I'm 56 now and can still give those younger divers a battle. sigh...


Sincerely, Steve

[GreshamH]

Thanks for the post Steve. I kind of figured it was like that. There's always a flip side to the story(front side) and I am glad you put it out.

So about the trip. How long did you stay out there? Depth of diving?

[reefrash]

Don't know enough about the situation to chime in, but I have to say that you made a great point Gresh

"He's not a watch wearer as goes for most professional aquarists. I know, you wear a watch" -Gresham

That's some true stuff right there

[JeremyR]

So the boxes & paperwork had the proper scientific name on them, right? Not just "blue passer"?

[Vili_Shark]

They closed the thread on the other board.

I didnt like the bashing.

[jmaneyapanda]

Yes, they did close the thread on the other forum. Personally, I didnt like the applause. Many questions have been left unanswered in this whole debacle, and, if answered would go a long ways to clearing the matter.

[jmaneyapanda]

So the boxes & paperwork had the proper scientific name on them, right? Not just "blue passer"?

No, according to Steve, he listed the Sceintific name as "Holocanthus passer" on the declaration of import. Not "Holocanthus limabughi". Why, I dont know.

[Clownfish75]

I dont understand why people think they need to know about the underlying story of this sort of stuff.

Personally i would never conduct my personal business on any forum, this is a business matter not something for open discussion with others, who might like to think they know about your industry.

I would like to state i dont know any details, nor do i understand your industry.

Christian

[jmaneyapanda]

I dont understand why people think they need to know about the underlying story of this sort of stuff.

Personally i would never conduct my personal business on any forum, this is a business matter not something for open discussion with others, who might like to think they know about your industry.

I would like to state i dont know any details, nor do i understand your industry.

Christian

I understand and appreciate your position. However, in this case, it directly effects the reef aquarium hobby. Even furthermore, it involves a very negative perception of this hobby. In all the threads I have read on this matter, there are numerous "supporters", suggesting this was a beaurocratic disparity. I disgaree. The underlying story would certainly help to clarify this matter, to determine whether the seizure was justified, as this would be smuggling wildlife, or whether Steve's reputation, experience, and credentials have been unfairly tarnished.

[myerst22]

So there are Passers that are excepted as Blue Passers. So did the agent that intially stopped the import from going forward actually know the difference between H. passer and H. limbaughi? I would think probably not. If trying to say it is a Passer than why not just call it H. Passer? Why would it be necessary to label it Blue Passer? Most of the fish wecally see collected have many colors, but rarely is a color used to describe a fish, especially scientifically? By calling this fish Passer, are we saying that passer and limabaughi are one in the same? Something doesn't add up? T

[spawner]

I remember seeing them back in 2001 when Butch at Reef Rascals in Melbourne, FL made the long boat ride out and back to bring those fish in. Not the most attractive fish. I'm sure he had permits for them. I think he went with a bunch of HAM Radio operators.

[nemo24]

The industry should avoid messes such as this, it ruins it for everyone.

[GreshamH]

The industry should avoid messes such as this, it ruins it for everyone.

We're all ears if you have a greater solution to the problem

[naesco]

I agree with Clipperton. News like this only hurts industry and our hobby.
I recently read somewhere that Obama is concerned about the reefs in the Indonesian area.
When he sends Obamites to explore this area and our industry/hobby they will report to him many negative issues. Sadly for the most part these matters can be addressed and should be addressed by industry who has the most to lose.
Failure to address the ongoing problems will only result in government involvement in our industry/hobby.
Begin at the beginning.
1. Solve the use of cyanide.
2. Solve the issue with the BG. This surely is a simple task as it involves one species and one area.
3. Implement a unsuitable species list USL.

I firmly believe that industry must organize itself on both sides of the oceans, both buyer and supplier.
I am afraid that time is not on our side.

[nemo24]

The greater solution is to ban or further restrict the importation of livestock , period. The lesser solution is to play by the rules and obey the laws.

[Fish_dave]

The greater solution is to support third world coastal dwellers and make the reefs something of value to them, thus getting the people at the source to protect that from which their livelyhoods stem. The lessor solution is to further restrict the importation of goods that are supporting coastal dwellers thus forcing them further into destructive practices such as logging and commercial food fishing.

Dave

[GreshamH]

I agree with Clipperton. News like this only hurts industry and our hobby.
I recently read somewhere that Obama is concerned about the reefs in the Indonesian area.
When he sends Obamites to explore this area and our industry/hobby they will report to him many negative issues. Sadly for the most part these matters can be addressed and should be addressed by industry who has the most to lose.
Failure to address the ongoing problems will only result in government involvement in our industry/hobby.
Begin at the beginning.
1. Solve the use of cyanide.
2. Solve the issue with the BG. This surely is a simple task as it involves one species and one area.
3. Implement a unsuitable species list USL.

I firmly believe that industry must organize itself on both sides of the oceans, both buyer and supplier.
I am afraid that time is not on our side.

My little non-informed Canadian pal, Clipperton is the fish in question, not a person you can agree with

You still have not gotten the clue politics really has no place in this forum.......must be you're getting old

And just because I can't let it slip by, it's BC, not BG

[reefrash]

The greater solution is to support third world coastal dwellers and make the reefs something of value to them, thus getting the people at the source to protect that from which their livelyhoods stem. The lessor solution is to further restrict the importation of goods that are supporting coastal dwellers thus forcing them further into destructive practices such as logging and commercial food fishing.

Dave

Your word is bond! Educate and start from the source, that's WTH puts food on their table, right?

The best part is though, Wayne thinks Obama has a reef tank, that's funny!