Reefs.org Forums

[JennM]

I think the split thread should be entitled:

Men behaving badly.

You guys are pitiful. Must have nothing better to do that engage in a pissing contest.

IMO there's no winners in this one. You are all starting to look pretty bad here.

I'm going to get back to WORK - I have plenty.

Jenn

[sdcfish]

I am sorry Jenn Would love to get a new thread started....something productive. My focus right now is really about how we can get our industry more sustainable in the eyes of the people who feel it's not.....AND so we all know we are doing the right thing. I have all the confidence in the world in our resources, and just want science to prove it.

Eric

[aquaticvet1]

Eric,
Go ahead and start a new thread.

Dave,
There is a difference between personal attacks and business practice attacks. I know this is America but we do really need to be responsible for our own actions.

Steve,
I do not know if it is true or not but I heard all or most of your Clippertons are dead and were shortly after they entered the US. As a veterinarian I would guess if that is true, they are still dead. Who really cares though it is only one bucket full of fish and there are more where they came from , right? This industry really does need help.

I will leave so that the others may go on and the thread can stay open..

[myloudkids]

I'd like to go to the 104th St saltwater wholesalers to shop. How can I do that? I spend a lot of money at LFS's. But, I'd like to see a lot bigger variety.

[JennM]

I'd like to go to the 104th St saltwater wholesalers to shop. How can I do that? I spend a lot of money at LFS's. But, I'd like to see a lot bigger variety.

Get a business license and open a LFS. That's how you get to shop at wholesalers. By being a retailer.

Jenn

[Raskal311]

I'd like to go to the 104th St saltwater wholesalers to shop. How can I do that? I spend a lot of money at LFS's. But, I'd like to see a lot bigger variety.

Get a business license and open a LFS. That's how you get to shop at wholesalers. By being a retailer.

Jenn

If only this industry was perfect.... sigh....

[JennM]

True enough but that is the "proper" answer to the question.

Jenn

[dain45yl]

You would think but at some point greed takes over and turning away any customer is not going to happen. Easier to try to explain why they were there then to admit it.

[jeffer]

Quality Marine's data or inventory is not directly linked to LiveAquaria. If you follow the postings on Reefcentral you will see that to the customers dismay, we do not know QM's inventory. That is the reason for us occasionally taking orders for specimens which are not available. If we knew the inventory, that would not happen.

As SW mentioned , we dropship items from Ocean to Ocean which is part of QM. Quality Marine is extremely ethical and does not allow us to cherry pick or rob from their supply at the expense of their retail customers. In fact, Chris Buerner openly told me that he would never sell us specimens at the expense of his retail accounts,---- and he does not. We do indeed get some great livestock from QM but only on a limited basis. If you follow our history, QM's reluctance to fill many of our orders led us into developing our own holding facility in Northern Wisconsin. That allows us to use multiple suppliers to fulfill our Diver's Den orders. QM could supply our needs, but they flat out will not jeapardize their retail accounts to do so------and I respect that.

As a retailer you should contrast QM's practice to others such as the old Flying Fish group, ReeferMadness and now the recent BlueZoo model. IMO, those practices are the ultimate in destruction for retailers.

Please do not get me wrong, I would love to buy more from QM but I also respect Chris's integrity and devotion to his retail accounts. His integrity forced me to assume overhead in Wisconsin rather then strictly dropshipping. To my dislike it also causes me to charge more, which further protects QM's retailers.

Having said all that, I accept and respect the limitations that QM places on dropshippers such as me as well as their devotion to their retail customers. They are second to none when it comes to quality and integrity.

Race

Try to give more effort on it.

[nemo24]

This 1 1/2 year old thread is interesting. You would think the economy has impacted the live stock industry, not much discussion.

[cortez marine]

For decades now it has been considered that the worst thing a wholesaler can do is sell directly to a retailers best customer.

Protecting the retailers interests by turning his customers away has been long practiced by some of us....
We have kicked out and denied the public for 30 years now.
"Go support your retailer" I would say.
'He charges too much!" They would answer.
But still, out of loyalty and tradition, we would hold the line and send them away.

But now, there has evolved a culture whereby retailers buy from direct sources and cut out the wholesaler.
So what?
Well, thats just being clever. Afterall, its smart business, right?
That is of course the defense, especially when a reccesionary economy gives everyone a free pass to engage in a "no-holds barred ...free for all ....law of the jungle ...anything goes to make a buck new world."
Any possible advantage to make money now is considered an automatic justification regardless of how things used to be.
Hmmm....but does it work both ways? I mean...what happens if importers come to think that way? What if importers strike back and cut out the retailer?

Question;
If retailers can now freely buy so much of their livestock direct from wholesalers sources thru transhippers .... it is obvious that they will score the "easy stuff" cheaper and all the time now....forever more. This easy stuff is where wholesalers used to make the money that subsidized the less profitable "cool and rare stuff" . Its seems that that top 10% of cool and rare stuff is all retailers buy anymore. So many customers now just think..."Well, I just cherrypicked you to death but you can just make it up on someone else. I'm special."
Well folks, thats not what anyone sets up shop to do. Selling that top 10% means nothing as everyone will buy it anyway....including the more loyal regulars that keep one in business.
Its the other 90% that must be sold to keep divers, exporters alive as they cannot survive on cherries alone.

With far better connections and relationships with field suppliers then any retailer, why wouldn't importers then do the same....market direct and unchain themselves?
Why wouldn't they open a 2nd set of books for a retail department and also sell direct to hobbyists ?
Why not "spruce up" the wharehouse for the public, hold ridiculous specials and become a hybrid enterprise that so many retailers have already become? Real, direct importers have the cheapest cost of fish without all the transhippers charges and cost amplifiers, cheaper per fish overhead and cheaper rent.

If the buying habits of the retail community have really changed forever and if Bali, Philippines, Jakarta,Hawaii, Sri Lanka, Mauritius, Solomon Islands,Tonga and Australia fishes etc now all go direct to retailers on tranship....then wholesalers may also need to evolve as well. They could become more like the Costco model and wharehouse to the public in a dramatic way....both local and shipout.

A mid-size wholesaler evolving into a wholesaler/retailer hybrid would instantly be the biggest fish shop around with impossible deals that only a true importers economy of scale could allow.
There are few dealers left with any "moral high ground" to criticize this new "mega-direct [ non tranship] importer retailer hybrid" as it was their very practices that compel it. There would no longer be a retribution for it as we have evolved a trade where the pot does not call the kettle black . Trying to acclimate 5 boxes of Bali tranship in buckets on the floor removes a retailers case for indignation.

Consumers would love it.
And if 2-3 of these importer-retailers in a region did this, they would make life even harder for the conventional retailers that didn't support them.[ except for the cherries ] Then, they themselves might have low-ball price wars returning prices on some fish to levels not seen since the 70's.

Then may evolve a mega-hybrid retailer importer who owns ones own collecting stations in a country or two...importing barebones direct and lowballing direct to the public even lower.
We have not seen the end of our evolutionary destiny yet by any means.
Steve

[Snailman]

For decades now it has been considered that the worst thing a wholesaler can do is sell directly to a retailers best customer.

Protecting the retailers interests by turning his customers away has been long practiced by some of us....
We have kicked out and denied the public for 30 years now.
"Go support your retailer" I would say.
'He charges too much!" They would answer.
But still, out of loyalty and tradition, we would hold the line and send them away.

But now, there has evolved a culture whereby retailers buy from direct sources and cut out the wholesaler.
So what?
Well, thats just being clever. Afterall, its smart business, right?
That is of course the defense, especially when a reccesionary economy gives everyone a free pass to engage in a "no-holds barred ...free for all ....law of the jungle ...anything goes to make a buck new world."
Any possible advantage to make money now is considered an automatic justification regardless of how things used to be.
Hmmm....but does it work both ways? I mean...what happens if importers come to think that way? What if importers strike back and cut out the retailer?

Question;
If retailers can now freely buy so much of their livestock direct from wholesalers sources thru transhippers .... it is obvious that they will score the "easy stuff" cheaper and all the time now....forever more. This easy stuff is where wholesalers used to make the money that subsidized the less profitable "cool and rare stuff" . Its seems that that top 10% of cool and rare stuff is all retailers buy anymore. So many customers now just think..."Well, I just cherrypicked you to death but you can just make it up on someone else. I'm special."
Well folks, thats not what anyone sets up shop to do. Selling that top 10% means nothing as everyone will buy it anyway....including the more loyal regulars that keep one in business.
Its the other 90% that must be sold to keep divers, exporters alive as they cannot survive on cherries alone.

With far better connections and relationships with field suppliers then any retailer, why wouldn't importers then do the same....market direct and unchain themselves?
Why wouldn't they open a 2nd set of books for a retail department and also sell direct to hobbyists ?
Why not "spruce up" the wharehouse for the public, hold ridiculous specials and become a hybrid enterprise that so many retailers have already become? Real, direct importers have the cheapest cost of fish without all the transhippers charges and cost amplifiers, cheaper per fish overhead and cheaper rent.

If the buying habits of the retail community have really changed forever and if Bali, Philippines, Jakarta,Hawaii, Sri Lanka, Mauritius, Solomon Islands,Tonga and Australia fishes etc now all go direct to retailers on tranship....then wholesalers may also need to evolve as well. They could become more like the Costco model and wharehouse to the public in a dramatic way....both local and shipout.

A mid-size wholesaler evolving into a wholesaler/retailer hybrid would instantly be the biggest fish shop around with impossible deals that only a true importers economy of scale could allow.
There are few dealers left with any "moral high ground" to criticize this new "mega-direct [ non tranship] importer retailer hybrid" as it was their very practices that compel it. There would no longer be a retribution for it as we have evolved a trade where the pot does not call the kettle black . Trying to acclimate 5 boxes of Bali tranship in buckets on the floor removes a retailers case for indignation.

Consumers would love it.
And if 2-3 of these importer-retailers in a region did this, they would make life even harder for the conventional retailers that didn't support them.[ except for the cherries ] Then, they themselves might have low-ball price wars returning prices on some fish to levels not seen since the 70's.

Then may evolve a mega-hybrid retailer importer who owns ones own collecting stations in a country or two...importing barebones direct and lowballing direct to the public even lower.
We have not seen the end of our evolutionary destiny yet by any means.
Steve

Excellent post Steve!

[cortez marine]

Thank you Chris but it silenced the discussion!

"Trying to acclimate 5 boxes of Bali tranship in buckets on the floor removes a retailers case for indignation."

OMG....I just delivered to a customer and saw exactly this in progress. I should've taken a video.
There was this harried retailer.... no staff help, phone ringing, customers all milling around asking too many questions and 20 stressed fish atop each other fish per bucket of transluscent , frothy water.
Steve

[Thales]

Thank you Chris but it silenced the discussion!

No it didn't. This discussion petered out over a year ago.