Reefs.org Forums

[Fish_dave]

Vitz,

The wholesaler in question has these cultured corals in his warehouse in California, nothing about sitting on cultured corals overseas although I was once in a position where I was sitting on 40,000 pieces of assorted cultured corals overseas and did indeed have a problem selling them all.

So to answer you directly, Yes I do know of a wholesaler located in California who is sitting on Thousands (plural) of cultured corals right now. Your assumption that he must be on 104th street is wrong. In fact the wholesaler that you allude to selling "quite alot of cultured corals yearly" is also not on 104th street. Unless you are going to claim that it was a wholesaler other than ERI where you witnessed this and I doubt that any wholesaler on 104th other than PAF sells more cultured yearly than ERI.

I have some experience with cultured corals, more than your experience I would bet and my experience says that selection and quality is much more important than price. I think that the guy with the cultured coral to sell just happened to talk with the wrong wholesaler, that particular one is full of his own cultured corals. The seller needs to come talk to the guys on 104th street about what moves, what does not, and what the market will pay.

Dave

[vitz]

Vitz,

The wholesaler in question has these cultured corals in his warehouse in California, nothing about sitting on cultured corals overseas although I was once in a position where I was sitting on 40,000 pieces of assorted cultured corals overseas and did indeed have a problem selling them all.

So to answer you directly, Yes I do know of a wholesaler located in California who is sitting on Thousands (plural) of cultured corals right now. Your assumption that he must be on 104th street is wrong. In fact the wholesaler that you allude to selling "quite alot of cultured corals yearly" is also not on 104th street. Unless you are going to claim that it was a wholesaler other than ERI where you witnessed this and I doubt that any wholesaler on 104th other than PAF sells more cultured yearly than ERI.

I have some experience with cultured corals, more than your experience I would bet and my experience says that selection and quality is much more important than price. I think that the guy with the cultured coral to sell just happened to talk with the wrong wholesaler, that particular one is full of his own cultured corals. The seller needs to come talk to the guys on 104th street about what moves, what does not, and what the market will pay.

Dave

it's pretty much 'common knowledge' here that i worked at eri-and yes-they seem to have no major issues in succesfully marketing and selling aquacultured corals




you probably DO have much more experience with cultured corals-my gigs in husbandry have always been more fish oriented, as they tend to have more 'issues' in captive systems than corals do, and i tend to 'grok' fish quite well (i would like to think) -corals are butt easy in closed systems care compared to fish, in general, ime

for the corals that 'bennet' mentioned, there really sin't too much variation/room in quality-you can only get so nice/pretty w/a xenia, or candycane, or other 'bread and butter' items-so the economics/biz issues/side HAS to be the prime 'addressee'

it's kinda funny-you start out w/a personal attack accusing me of saying that i think i'm a 'know it all', and seems to agree in essence to what i said to the op, in slightly different wording

[bookfish]

If we can avoid making/ taking stuff personal, this could be a very useful discussion.

[seamaiden]

The only thing resembling personal insults I see here are coming from the man who's now claiming personal insults were made against him. First he rails against someone for being patronizing and condescending (a little redundant, but hey), but then proceeds to call the OP 'dumb', and never fully appreciates how patronizing his own posts are.

[Thales]

Vitz,
Please respond to my PM asap
thanks

[vitz]

The only thing resembling personal insults I see here are coming from the man who's now claiming personal insults were made against him. First he rails against someone for being patronizing and condescending (a little redundant, but hey), but then proceeds to call the OP 'dumb', and never fully appreciates how patronizing his own posts are.

i didn't call the op 'dumb'
i said the person who comitted to buying thousands and thosands of cultured corals made a dumb decision

[Fish_dave]

I don't think that anyone commited to buying thousands and thousands of cultured corals. I think that they commited to fragging and growing many thousands. Many overseas suppliers have done this and have many 10's of thousands of coral frags growing in mariculture. When I was doing it we grew around 6 corals that were rejected to every 1 that was exported. That is just the way the selection and grading process goes. The wholesaler in the states that is being discussed has grown rather than purchased his farmed stock. I would guess that he will have a better sell ratio than 6 to 1 but it is yet to be seen where he will end up.

I apologize if I insultued you Vitz. I think that a lot of the problem that I have with your replies is the fact that you make an assumption and then run with it as the truth. You bring some interesting ideas to the discussions, just a little more research into the facts would help with the tone of your replies in my opinion.

Dave

[vitz]

I don't think that anyone commited to buying thousands and thousands of cultured corals. I think that they commited to fragging and growing many thousands. Many overseas suppliers have done this and have many 10's of thousands of coral frags growing in mariculture. When I was doing it we grew around 6 corals that were rejected to every 1 that was exported. That is just the way the selection and grading process goes. The wholesaler in the states that is being discussed has grown rather than purchased his farmed stock. I would guess that he will have a better sell ratio than 6 to 1 but it is yet to be seen where he will end up.

I apologize if I insultued you Vitz. I think that a lot of the problem that I have with your replies is the fact that you make an assumption and then run with it as the truth. You bring some interesting ideas to the discussions, just a little more research into the facts would help with the tone of your replies in my opinion.

Dave

i'll respond to this and then stop posting on this thread

the ONLY info i had, and was refering to, was that offered on the thread-nothing more, nothing less-and it seems as if the info relayer had less than all of the info straight and correct, in hindsight


my reponses were nothing less than none sugar coated sensibility, and i was called a 'know it all' by you, and chided by a pothead who's not even in this industry,who not only failed to read my posts correctly, but needed to resort to childish (and incorrect) retort regarding my word choices

AND i get words from righty about MY behavior via PM, after waiting patiently since asking him in february if i could return to posting here

sorry, but that's just not right-no matter how ANYONE cuts it

[seamaiden]

i'll respond to this and then stop posting on this thread

the ONLY info i had, and was refering to, was that offered on the thread-nothing more, nothing less-and it seems as if the info relayer had less than all of the info straight and correct, in hindsight


my reponses were nothing less than none sugar coated sensibility, and i was called a 'know it all' by you, and chided by a pothead who's not even in this industry,who not only failed to read my posts correctly, but needed to resort to childish (and incorrect) retort regarding my word choices

AND i get words from righty about MY behavior via PM, after waiting patiently since asking him in february if i could return to posting here

sorry, but that's just not right-no matter how ANYONE cuts it

Ah, looks like vitz still doesn't understand what it is to not make personal attacks, let alone keep them pertinent (you do fall into the ad hominem style with little provocation).

What would one's current level of experience in the industry have to do with their perception of your behavior? What if it were some hobbyist who happened upon this thread and made the same observation? What was it that was so "childish" about the observations? Or was it that they were simply made?

No matter, you're no longer posting in this thread (the thread that was begun by someone to whom you ambiguously referred).

And, you might want to take some care referring to any of us as "potheads" in such a manner and implying those who smoke can't think. You'd probably be surprised who does (and perhaps, who doesn't).

All I said was that the only thing resembling personal attacks *I* saw were coming from you. Others were simply responding with their own knowledge, and in some instances perceptions. At this point I definitely stand by my previous statement.

[coralfarmin]

Hi,
I own a decent size coral propagation facility (~8000 gallons) and I am looking for some answers since I am getting mixed messages from LFS, the hobby, and large wholesalers. My background is at the hobby level and living in Colorado I have very little experience at the large scale places in California and Florida.

Much of my facility was set up to grow "bread an butter corals" such as candy canes, anthelia, leathers, rose bubbles anemones, zooanthids, and about 10 types of sps for that is what my impression, from MACNA presenters, this forum as well as other forums, was what wholesalers are looking for in corals. I currently have close to 100 candy canes (4 heads each coral) and 100 pcs of anthelia (6-7) polyps on each ready to go and will have that again in a month or so. Leathers, Zooanthids, RBTA's, and others are close behind in sustainability.

I have contacted a couple of wholesalers and the interest was not what I was hoping for. I will be contacting them again soon to find out what they are looking for.... since that was not clear in our conversations.

I have no intention of selling the corals to LFS unless there is no other option. I feel that I can meet the prices of what a wholesaler would want ( I have been given no exact numbers on this matter so my assumption is a little less than 50% of what a wholesaler would sell for). I have used this pricing during my conversations and the disinterest did not seem to be a pricing issue.

I am left to believe that it is:
1) the corals that I am growing are not in demand
2) Aquaculture is a bunch of BS and there is no care on this matter
3) My pricing is way off
4) A bunch of measly anthelia and candies will not get a response and I need more corals to come into production.

Please chime in from LFS, Wholesalers, or from the hobby.

Thanks,
Bennett

I see you even have, RBTA's, those should move easy...how many do you have of these, what size are they

[Thales]

AND i get words from righty about MY behavior via PM, after waiting patiently since asking him in february if i could return to posting here

sorry, but that's just not right-no matter how ANYONE cuts it

Disclosure: A while ago Vitz was asked to stop posting in the industry forum. A few months ago, he sent a pm asking if he could start posting again, but was never answered, and for that I have apologized. Instead of sending a follow up pm, he started posting again. I sent him a pm asking if he had talked to another RDO staff about posting, which he has not, and he started berating me for not responding to his previous pm. It seems clear that the reasons that we asked him to stop posting in the industry forum originally are still valid. These reasons have nothing to do with the content of his posts, rather with the way he chooses to express that content.

[MrPike]

I see you even have, RBTA's, those should move easy...how many do you have of these, what size are they

I'm in partnership with the OP. The RBTA's are about 3-4" expanded. They are bright red. They are one facet of our business, everyone we have approached as been very interested in them. We are trying to really concentrate on them, but it takes time to get to sustainable numbers.

Thank you for posting Vitz, you did bring some interesting points to the thread. I had not considered the shipping breaks that wholesalers are able to take advantage of when ordering all of their product from one company. If we step in and want to do business with the wholesale side of the industry, it sounds like we must make it worth their while, and possibly offer them either substantially better product, or comparable product at a reduced price.

Im still unclear on what the market price for Xenia, Anthelia, and Candy Canes. I know what they retail for on average, and I know what they are sold to retailers as. I had assumed 50% of wholesale was a reasonable amount, and we would offer 8 dollars for 1 square inch of Anthelia(roughly 8 stalks) to a wholesaler. We grew them, knowing they would grow. But if we are not able to produce them profitably, then they will be discontinued and we will move on to something that does sell profitably.

Are my above assumptions way off? For better or worse, we are good at growing coral, but ignorant of the politics and business in LA. Im posting here to try and better understand this side of the business.

[coralfarmin]

IMO, I would look and see what transhippers actualy pay.....that would be a pivotable point.....since you cant sell them less than they get them for.(IMO)

or see what they (transhipper) charge the wholesaler with shipping breaks (freight is high for most)...then you'd be pretty close....some where mid those 2 points .....at this point in time (just my guess)
...I may be wrong..

sell to etailers...minimum orders = full box (IMO)

I will stick with the transhipper due to the fact (I wont get seconds)...price averages the same as wholesale after freight, if you dont have the freight breaks
there are also 2 wholesalers I will do business with (buy from)

but I almost always will order full sized over frags/maricultured in either case...prices are not much dif...most of the cost of the coral, is in frieght(in my case)

consider the generation of the frag to = its value (imo) first generation cant be sold as true aquacultered(since it is just a frag off a wild colony adapted to captiviy IMO not sure how many generations it takes to get there but atleast 3-4.....meaning how many frags from frags with each getting more value, to the enduser(in theory) to reach a square then cubed generation (could be wrong though) ...I know this is not horticulter, but same principl they use to get stable true strains...only your not breeding, each new grown frag.....
just a example

In this case to get a frag of a frag of a frag etc......to reach a true captive raised hardy coral

oops sorry I ment this for the other thread

eddie

[coralfarmin]

double post sorry


eddie

[Raskal311]

I think the biggest issue here is what your doing is not unique and is easily done on a small scale for a very small investment.

If I were in your shoes I would follow the marketing strategy ORA is using. Don’t bother wasting all your time and energy on easy to produce cheap corals. Focus more on premo choice pieces and market them just as that. On a retail level it’s easier for me to selling a really nice piece of coral with a catchy name them 4 heads of candy cane.

Ohh and I believe I know who Dave is talking about; they do have thousands of culture corals in stock and ready to go.

[MrPike]

I think the biggest issue here is what your doing is not unique and is easily done on a small scale for a very small investment.

So the issue is excess supply? Too many aquacultured Anthelia /Candies / Other Bread and Butter available and no one wants them? Are there corals that are not in excess supply that you think would be in higher demand?

[coralfarmin]

if you have stuff like , purple monster......a single zoo, is worth as much as your whole stock of comman coral almost (I think)....maybe not your whole stock but just a example,since people would almost "beg" to buy them from you...they are many generations old, rare, etc....green slimer is also popular.....but now your not just breaking up a coral, you are into many generations old, there are alot more, but prepare to fork over mega bucks to get a large stock of "true"captive rasied, almost trade marked names

[coralfarmin]

sorry purple monster is a acro (rare) also, maybe its purple people eater (the zoo's)....still they all require deep pockets

yup I went back to check....it is a purple people eater (the zoos) in captivity since 2001, another thing you could do is buy seed clams, and mature them for market

[Raskal311]

I think the biggest issue here is what your doing is not unique and is easily done on a small scale for a very small investment.

It’s more like easy supply on demand. Anyone can run out and get a few large pieces of candy cane cut it up and within an hour have a few dozen 4-5 polyp fragments ready to go out the door. Given you can’t call it cultured but it makes very little difference to most people.

As for what is in high demand your guess is as good as mine; polyps are doing ok but that’s about it. My money is on SPS again but you’ll have to collect the branded stuff and grow that; stay away from anything that is easily imported from the islands.

Have you or are you planning to attend trade shows to market your products? I personally think it would be a good idea. I’ll also give you a good sense of what direction the industry is taking. Maybe find a dry goods supplier/manufacturer and partner up at the trade shows? Share booths and other expenses?

I know you planned on selling to the wholesalers exclusively but selling to retail stores like ORA Farm is an option worth looking at.

[mr.wilson]

Coral wholesalers are getting extremely aggressive in their sales departments. Not so long ago, a big company would have a warehouse full of workers packing orders and a small handful of sales people sending out weekly stock lists by fax or email. With the slow market situation and increased competition, the sales force now outnumbers the warehouse workers in some companies. Wholesalers that used to send out innocuous stock lists are now sending out fireside chats from the owner about tough times and cut-backs. The owners that I hadn't heard from in 15 years are now manning the phones and working hard for every sale. Stock lists are now full of pictures and fancy designer names for colourful corals. You need to offer these items.

You need to develop a relationship with these sales people, not the end users. They are looking for something that will convince a store in Chicago to place a 20 box order. For them it isn't even about money at the volume you will be producing and selling. They don't need to make a profit on a few hundred crowd pleaser corals. If you can supply super colourful varieties in even moderate amounts, you will get your sale, regardless of price (within reason) and the sales person will be able to make the profitable 20 box sale of mostly bread & butter items to the LFS in Chicago. Rose anemones and xenia are not impulse buys and they won't make any sales person's hot list. You may have a great product, and even a great price, but it isn't going to motivate wholesalers to spend resources (pick-up from airport, unpack, inventory, & paperwork) on stocking your products.

A friend of mine used to sell Killifish to Ekwill Waterlife Resources in Florida. He shipped them from Canada at $2.50 each. At the time, Ekkwill wholesaled them for $5.00 a pair. How did they make money? By inducing sales with a few oddballs. Some kid doing a fish order at a big chain store doesn't care if 5D Tropical Farms sells pineapple swords for $.03 less. They place the $5000 order so they can get a couple pairs of Killis for their own tank. Not every item can work out as a loss-leader, but exceptional corals are an easy sale.

If you can produce superior, show stopper corals, they will beat a pathway to your door. It also opens the door to a sliding scale of marketing your products to a LFS or hobbyist buyer groups (group buys). I know dealing with small stores uses just as many resources as a big sale to a wholesaler or jobber, but these days we have to take what we can get and use it as motivation to pursue bigger fish.