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[Len]

I'm QT'ing everything nowadays, but I wonder if a disease free tank is a pipe dream. Your opinion?

[seamaiden]

No, but I'd like to tweak what you're calling it to say that while disease may be present, it doesn't express. I personally have come to believe that all tanks have some disease-causing organisms no matter what one does.

Definitely, though, don't stop a good quarantine practice. While it can't make up for good husbandry it does prevent things from going south really fast. I've said it before and I'll say it again--proper quarantine means the animal or organism is disease-free for a full 30 days before it gets put on display.

[JimM]

I'm QT'ing everything nowadays, but I wonder if a disease free tank is a pipe dream. Your opinion?

Disease free tanks are not a pipe dream in my experience.

First, you need to show some wisdom and a modicum of restraint with fish selection. If you want a disease free system, then don't pick species
that are more prone to stress and a weakened immune response. There's enough fish out there that one need not take home a hippo tang for instance. An imperator can do fine, but many don't and it's not the wisest fish choice when all is said and done, if nothing else it can present with lymphocystis months after quarantine.
Any fish can have an isopod tucked away under it's gill somewhere, but we skew the odds out of favor by selecting fish that are susceptible to disease. We do so to an even greater extent by getting lazy with quarantine. Most pathogens can be ruled out by a good visual inspection at the store.

I've had what appeared to be disease free tanks for the most part, the last 4 I had running over the past 10 years as a matter of fact.
I was careful with fish selection, I selected hardy species, and practiced proper quarantine procedure. Can I make the statement that there were no pathogens of
any kind in my system? Of course not but I can say nothing presented. I can also say that there's nothing anyone could have done to get C. irritans to show it's face...it just wasn't in there. My fish suffered a massive temperature drop in their rubbermaid holding container during one move, down to the 60's and were non the worse for wear.
They didn't get ich or any other disease because I took steps to either prevent or minimize the possibility of those pathogens entering the system.

How many sick Sixline wrasses have you seen? Argi angels? Triggerfish, Passer angels - Groupers - Tomato clowns - moray eels - Angler fish - Dottybacks - fish selection goes a long way and is more than half the battle. That step should happen before you leave the house to drive to the store.

A disease free tank is not a pipe dream, it just takes some planning, wisdom and restraint...maybe a dash of luck.

[Matt_]

Define "Disease free" and "Pipe dream" please. If you are hoping for the answer to your question to be "Yes, so don't worry about QTing fish anymore" you won't hear it from me.

I don't stress as much about Cryptocaryon anymore. It is always a good idea to put new fish in QT and let them recover from shipping in "private", being well fed and not harassed, and if they show signs of Crypto you can treat them for it. But, if I see it in a display tank it is not the end of the world. We have it in our big tank, and even several smaller tanks, but by "have it" I mean that we know it's there because we've seen it in the past on fish that show it and then get better. Healthy fish kept in good conditions seem to shake it off on their own IME.

[seamaiden]

That's been my experience as well, which is why I no longer state that the tank is free of disease. The fish are not expressing disease, if healthy.

[JimM]

A large public display may be a different story, but it's relatively straight forward to keep crypto out of the home aquarium.

[jhemdal]

I think one needs to more clearly define "disease" here in order to answer this question properly. If you include such age-realted issues such as fatty-liver disease, tumors, etc. then I would say it is most certainly a pipe dream. If however, you mean, can home aquariums be kept "mostly free" of common epizootic infections (especially metazoans) through proper quarantine, then I would opine that they definately can be.
Case in point; when I began as curator at my facility, I had to deal with anchor worm infestations in many of our main systems. Once I resolved those problems in my first year, and then instituted a comprehensive 45 day quarantine protocol, in the subsequent 20 years, we have not had anchor worm in any of our displays - yet I have still caught it, and resolved it, perhaps a dozen times during our routine quarantine of new fish. Every other case of protozoan and metazoan diseseases I have seen at the facility have been a result of improper quarantine; a hurried Q process here, a bit of contaminated water getting transferred there. So: IMO a proper quarantine is the way to go for EVERY new fish, just be prepared to deal with problems if you mess it up!

Jay

p.s. - there is also the unproven, but highly probable idea that long-term captive fishy build resistance to many parasites, so the longer they are held in captivity, the less likely they are to succumb to common parasitic dieseases.

[JimM]

p.s. - there is also the unproven, but highly probable idea that long-term captive fishy build resistance to many parasites, so the longer they are held in captivity, the less likely they are to succumb to common parasitic dieseases.

I've noticed some fish continue to acclimate (and thus rebuild immune response) long after whatever arbitrary acclimation period we impose on them is over, and long after casual observations would indicate that they're ready to roll. I'd say at least 6 months for many angels for instance.

[jhemdal]

I've noticed some fish continue to acclimate (and thus rebuild immune response) long after whatever arbitrary acclimation period we impose on them is over, and long after casual observations would indicate that they're ready to roll. I'd say at least 6 months for many angels for instance.

Jim,

While I agree that acclimation to captivity is very lengthy in fish - much longer than most people realize, I should point out that my 45 day quarantine period isn't arbitrary, and isn't based on casual observations(grin). I selected 45 days because that is the length of time needed to perform the needed preventative treatments we use. It is a compromise between efficiency and efficacy. The whole process hinges on the idea that the minimum period is 45 days after the last disease has been resolved in that group of fish. I've had fish spend 6 months or more in quarantine before they met the requirements for release.


Jay

[seamaiden]

That's interesting to me because while at LBAOP they were very strict about the whole '30 days disease-free' protocol. Any instance of disease showed up and the clock was reset once the problem was handled. It's been a few years since I've been there but to my eye it's one of the better public aquariums (ok, my opinion is likely tainted somewhat).

[JimM]

I've noticed some fish continue to acclimate (and thus rebuild immune response) long after whatever arbitrary acclimation period we impose on them is over, and long after casual observations would indicate that they're ready to roll. I'd say at least 6 months for many angels for instance.

Jim,

While I agree that acclimation to captivity is very lengthy in fish - much longer than most people realize, I should point out that my 45 day quarantine period isn't arbitrary, and isn't based on casual observations(grin). I selected 45 days because that is the length of time needed to perform the needed preventative treatments we use. It is a compromise between efficiency and efficacy. The whole process hinges on the idea that the minimum period is 45 days after the last disease has been resolved in that group of fish. I've had fish spend 6 months or more in quarantine before they met the requirements for release.


Jay

I wasn't referring to you specifically Jay. I just meant that if we're lucky, a few wise aquarists will quarantine an imperator for say 6 weeks then introduce the fish into his display. Not realizing that 4 months down the road that fish still has a relatively compromised immune response compared to the baseline it will eventually achieve even further down the road.

I'm not sure if it's me or what, but seems like lately I've submitted a few responses and they never appeared...this is my second time submitting this.

[seamaiden]

It's you.

[JimM]

Dammit, I knew it.