Reefs.org Forums

[Thales]

On another forum the idea of an USL list came up again, and during the conversation I talked about the idea that it doesn't bother me when very small numbers of animals are collected for people who are dedicated to their specific needs and are willing to pay a premium, but that the economy of scale style of collecting these animals seems problematic. For instance, if someone has a Nautilus setup in mind, and can get one or two animals collected specifically for them, great, but what happens is 10 extras are collected and doomed to die quickly in inappropriate systems.
What do you all think of some kind of collect to order list? Could it have legs in the industry?

[sdcfish]

Good point Rich.....

Collect to order is exacty what some of us do. Black tips, Nautilus are two great examples. Others are jellyfish, flashlight fish are some that also come to mind.

It pains me to see some wholesalers carrying Black tip reef sharks and selling them for near cost to anyone who would want one for their 240 gallon aquarium. On that topic, it's new information that Black tips are actually illegal to possess in the state of California and other neighboring states without a restricted specie permit. We just completed that process and it was not easy to qualify. All hobbyists, retailers, wholesalers, public aquariums must have a restricted specie permit to keep these sharks. Oddly enough, this is a very old regulation never enforced until recently. Not even our local DFG people knew about the law nor did US F&WL! Anyway......if anyone has black tip reef sharks, you might want to check with your local DFG and make sure you are not breaking the law!

Back to topic.....yes I believe that we all need to collect to order in regards to special care species. Just not sure how many of us actually have this kind of responsible nature...but there are some of us who do:)

Eric

[Fish_dave]

Hey Eric, Does your arm hurt after patting yourself on the back like that?

On a more serious note I cast my vote for no USL list. A case can be made for putting everything on a USL list depending on what your feelings are and where you stand on the whole aquarium issue. I don't like the idea of nannies telling me what I can and can't attempt to keep in an aquarium. I think that the capitilist system keeps it pretty much in check. When people can't keep something alive they generally stop trying unless they feel that they have made progress with it. If they are making progress with husbandry requirements let them keep trying as long as they have the interest and funds to do so.

There are species that I do not order, either because I think that they are unsuitable or because they typically die when I have them and I don't want to keep losing money. However I have no desire to force my will on anybody else about suitable species, many may be more successful than I with certain species and I say let them keep working with them.

Dave

[sdcfish]

You are too funny Dave.......thanks for the friendly dig.....just want everyone to know Dave and I kid with each other all the time so no offense people:)

Point of the matter is....there are responsible operators on 104th......thanks g-d for that!
Have a good day everyone!

Eric

[Thales]

Dave -

USL is full of problems. Instead of telling proponents of USL that the idea is bankrupt, what do you think of redirecting the energy into some kind of Collect To Order list?

PS - I don't think an issue is people who have tried and decided to stop with a certain species, its more the people who 'give it a go' on a whim because the animal is there in the LFS.

[Fish_dave]

Eric has a school education day going on at SDC today, trying to make some new little hobbyists to keep us all in business. They are even serving Tacos for the kids and workers. I am glad that Eric can do it, a bunch of kids running around the warehouse is my nightmare. I am glad that Eric will step up and do it. (Seriously)

Dave

[Fish_dave]

Thales,

The collect to order list may work for some species but won't work well for others. Also who is going to decide what goes on the collect to order list and how could that be enforced. For instance most of the nautilus come from the Philippines. The guys collecting them need to collect several for the trip to pay for itself, if they were collecting only one animal it may need to be 20 to 30 times more expensive than they are now just to make the collecting trip worthwhile. Not many people will pay that for a Nautilus. The hobbyists that I know that are successful with Nautilus started by buying one on a whim lost it then got serious about figuring out how to be successful with them by buying more of them and experimenting. They now have it figured out. That would never have happened if the Nautilus was crazy expensive. Same goes for flashlight fish that need to be collected in numbers to make the collecting trip worth doing.

There are species that are so rarely collected in the hobby that a collect to order list works well for them. Many of the stonefish species falls into this category. Also many of the octopus and squid species. I hate to see any list made up that dictates what can be freely traded unless it is a species that can be dangerous to keep, a threat to the environment, or is truly endangered in the wild.

Dave

[sdcfish]

Thales,

Also....these issues are simply regulating themselves by the economics of trading in hard to keep species. Not many fish are going to be sold if they are difficult to keep. It starts with the collector and then travels right down the line. Let's take Hawaiian cleaner wrasse for example. We might have sold 1 all year long if that. I speak to the collectors and make sure they know not to collect them!

We do the same in other regions as well.

I know there are people/groups out there that would love to see some regulation on certain species, but it's really not necessary in my opinion.

I still believe that the SMART program will take care of the concerns of those pushing for regulation. Working on quotas that are comprised from MAQTRAC, everyone will know that the numbers collected per specie are sustainable.

In the meantime, the majority of the industry can continue to keep difficult species to a minium.

Regards,

Eric

[bookfish]

Ok, I'm old and cynical. But I find it hard to believe the public can comprehend a 2-tier sound byte. Some wild fish are ok to collect, but some are not? We recognize the difference in the hobby and industry but what about popular public opinion (or extremist nut-jobs) that drive legislation? Can they understand?

[sdcfish]

Some wild fish are ok to collect, but some are not?

I think the question is more like, "Some fish are easy to maintain in an aquarium and others are not". I don't see that as being very confusing.

E