Reefs.org Forums

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Liquid:

A few comments on the order of addition issue:

1. If you add the vinegar to limewater in the presence of excess solid Ca(OH)2, the primary effect will be to get more Ca++ and alkalinity into solution, without changing the pH much. This is especially useful for people who need a bit more calcium and alkalinity than limewater provides.

2. If you take a limewater solution of any strength, without excess solids, and then add vinegar, the effect will be to lower the pH, and not to increase the calcium or alkalinity. This effect is most useful for people who have enough Ca++ and alkalinity from lime3water, but have chronically high pH that they want to lower.

[liquid]

Heh, in my post I assumed that excess solid was a given when adding vinegar to kalkwasser. I should have mentioned that. [img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img]

liquid

[moe_k]

Can anyone help with my alk question above?
Thanks.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

How to stop the alk drop? Easy: get rid of all of the corals. Otherwise, it will always drop with time as they use up carbonate.

FWIW, I see no reason to mess with vinegar unless you determine that you need it for some special reason.

[moe_k]

Thanks for the quick answer! [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]

[uwexplorer]

I have the high PH problem using kalk. What is the best way to mix using the vinegar to lower the ph of the mix?
Vinegar - Kalk - Water
Water - Kalk - Vinegar
Water - Vinegar - Kalk
Does it matter if the mix is shaken or should it be stirred?
Is 5ml per quart a good starting point?
Thanks
Mike

[Bob Gardner]

This is for Randy Holmes-Farley.
After all that has been said by Briefcase regarding the benefits of using vinager to increase the calcium input from Kalkwasser are you saying it's not worth bothering with?
Bob Gardner

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Bob:

What I'm saying is that I basically agree with BReefCase's last post in the other thread. That is, that the advantages are these:

1. If you get adequate Ca++ and alk, but the pH always runs too high, adding vinegar after the solution has become saturated (with no extra solids) is a suitable way to lower the pH. Just adding some vinegar directly to the sump will also have this same effect (I've done this).

2. If you don't quite get enough Ca++ and alk from saturated limewater, adding vinegar before dissolving the Ca(OH)2 (and adding more solids to permit greater dissolution), will be a suitable way to get some more. Craig claims about 36% more can be had this way.

3. I don't know if many people will benefit from the carbon source idea as it relates to conversion of nitrate to N2. If organics were the limiting factor in that reaction, then it might help. I just don't know if organics are in such short supply in most tanks.

The potential disadvantages are these (IMO):

1. It's a complication to worry about that is, IMO, unnecessary for newbies to get involved with.

2. The potential to help solubilize undesirable impurities in limewater is a possible concern. Tuus effect is minor for small amounts of vinegar (as Craig pointed out a few days ago for lead), but gets bigger as the amount of vinegar rises. At the point of dissolving all of the lime that you use with a lot of vinegar and forming a low pH solution (say, 7), you potentially send many of the impurities into the tank (as you do when using milky limewater). If one chooses to do this, I'd advise using a high quality lime.

3. There is the potential for unusual algal growths that some have reported, though it's hard to prove that the people that report these had it result from the vinegar.

[Bob Gardner]

Randy, Thanks for making your comment clear to me and for bothering at such a harrowing time for all of us.
Bob