Reefs.org Forums

[MattM]

Tom was working on that, not sure where he is with it, but I'll either talk to him about it tonight, or he'll see this thread before that.

I would say the numbers from Germany lend credance to my belief that it is just dirt. We observed quartz in it, which is SiO2, and just look at the massive levels in the test. Also very high levels of other metals; Aluminum, Iron, Manganese, Titanium.

Terrible.

[Snailman]

Now I just need to find an analysis of CA Bentonite and I am sure they will closely match.


Chris

[jamesw]

Simonh from the UK posted the link on another board. I don't take any credit for finding it.

Pretty cool though, eh!?

Chris: I don't think it's bentonite drill mud. This stuff looks much more "biogenous."

Cheers
James

[MattM]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by clkohly:
<STRONG>Now I just need to find an analysis of CA Bentonite and I am sure they will closely match.</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

SiO2 64.7 %
Al2O3 17.6 %
Fe2O3 4.4 %
CaO 1.8 %
K20 .46 %
Na2O 2.5 %
MgO 1.8 %
TiO2 .16 %
H2O 5.9 %

From the Black Hills Bentonite web site.

Not a great match, not nearly enough Titanium, and no Manganese. Lots of Silicon Dioxide, Iron, and Aluminum though. It could be a component.

[ September 20, 2001: Message edited by: MattM ]

[MattM]

Here is the text of the German site after being passed through a web translator:

---------------------------

Problem definition:
Miracle Mud is a filter mud, which is to deliver all necessary trace elements to the water. The question arises now, of which the Miracle Mud consists?

Sample handling:
The damp sample is washed 3 time with demineralized water, dried with 105°C and measured afterwards.

*** chemical table here ***

Result:
The analysis shows, which is not contained to trace elements a large spectrum. The main parts are (beside oxygen) silicic acid, aluminum and iron. The high phosphate content of 4.621 mg/kg is clearly higher than in Korallenbruch *** some sort of calcium reactor media *** (to 1,680 mg/kg).

----------------------------

Comments in *** stars *** are mine.

[ September 20, 2001: Message edited by: MattM ]

[Len]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JohnNewton:
<STRONG>Does it say what percentage is miracle?</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

[liquid]

I've also wondered if they're having success because of the fine silty particle size of the product. Has anyone done a particle size distribution on the stuff?

Also, if you review that page of data, the "." are actually supposed to be commas...that's a LOT of friggin iron... 38,900 mg/kg. Wow. Now compare it to the various planted substrates for freshwater tanks with that in mind...

Also, make note that where ever the denote a value as a ' * ', that means that the component is less than 0.01% of the sample. Converting 0.01% into ppm:

0.01% / 100% = 0.0001

1 kg = 1,000,000 ppm

.0001 x 1,000,000 ppm = 100 ppm

So anything with a ' * ' is less than 100 ppm in the sample.

liquid

[ September 20, 2001: Message edited by: LiquidShaneo ]

[jamesw]

Yeah, in Europe, they use commas and periods backwards...Kind of like they drive on the wrong side of the road over there too... [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]

[tomocean]

You guys sure are going to alot of trouble to find out what's in mud. [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] My question is this...if you find out the precise composition, how would you duplicate it?
BTW - Only the Brits and Irish drive on the "other" side of the road in Europe. [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]

[Lobster]

FINALLY!

This is really interesting.

When I visited their store, they went on and on about how it cures disease in fish. Of course copper is used to treat fish, I wonder if the metals in miracle mud may actually work on similar lines? Just a dumb guess.

Any theories on how this analysis relates to their system supposedly not working properly when a skimmer is used?

[MattM]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tomocean:
<STRONG>My question is this...if you find out the precise composition, how would you duplicate it?</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We wouldn't.

The reason we want to know the composition of Miracle Mud is not to copy it, but to confirm our belief that it is backyard dirt and does not live up to the many claims made by the manufacturer.

To (badly) paraphrase Shakespeare, "We come not to copy Mud, but to debunk it" [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]

[monkeyboy]

I think the titanium part is the miracle, and theres enough in that stuff to make a couple of grounding probes. Sounds like dirt to me, i'll stick to live sand.

Now why is it that whenever some new product pops up that claims to do everything, it either turns out to be water that Julian Sprung blew his nose, $20 a bottle tap water with Peter Wilkens name on it, and now dirt? Geeze! [img]images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img]

[Carpentersreef]

So is there an analysis of "backyard dirt" somewhere to compare it to?

Mitch

I don't think I have any bentonite in my backyard, just in my wine kits. [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]

[tomocean]

I have been using the stuff and it has worked very well. I don't add ANYTHING to my reef and everything is thriving. No calcium supplements, no trace elements, no skimming, nada. I use it in conjunction with a DSB and I am impressed. Why are you so intent on knocking something that works? Why not just accept it as an alternative?

[jamesw]

You know what? Tanks that are set up using this "miracle mud" work. I'm not surprised.

I have seen a few here in Houston where Leng Sy has a very active distributor. I have no doubt that this "system" works...afterall, it's just a mud-based refugium, and we KNOW that those work.

What I am curious is whether the mud has something in it that an arragonite based mudbed doesn't have.

Cheers
James

[esmithiii]

TomOcean,

What makes you sure the Miracle Mud is the success factor? What corals have you been able to keep with no calcium supplimentation? How long has your tank been running without skimming and without supplements? I am not trying to challenge your success, just gather information.

I think the point is this:

There are many "snake oil" solutions in this hobby, and people want to know if it is worth the money or wether it is simply the dirt out of some guy's back yard. When you won't list ingresients in the back of your package, people are immediately going to be suspect.

[tomocean]

I agree completely james...since I know it does work it would be nice to know why. If it there was more than one source I think it would be a good thing (competition is a good thing [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img])

[dougc]

I do not think that Ecosystem would advocate not supplementating of calcium in a hard coral tank. In a pure soft-coral tank, maybe. I add B-Ionic to my tank to maintain alkalinity and calcium in my Ecosystem-filtered tank. In Mike Paletta's articles, he says that coral growth seems to level off after about 18 months to 2 years and that it takes off again when the mud is partially replaced. My tank has been running for about 14 months and growth has really kicked into overdrive just in the last 3 months. It will be interesting to see whether I see the dropoff noted by M. Paletta. I suspect that much of the value of the mud is the particle size and distribution, but there may be something that leaches out over time to produce the plateau effect which requires replacement of the mud. All that iron should be good for blue ridge coral, anyway.

[tomocean]

I'm not certain that it is the only factor. I'm just saying that the system works. My tank has been going about 4 months now so we shall see in the long run. I have been watching Ca, Ph, et al very carefully. I currently have Yellow Polyps, Green Star Polyps, Pulsing Xenia, Green Frogspawn, Moon Brain, Mushroom, Purple Gorgonian, and a Pink Colt. I specifically didn't keep SPS or clams because I didn't want anything that absorbs high rates of Calcium.
Apparently, Ly Seng did alot of research and it took many attempts before he got the right combination to make the system work. I don't blame him for not wanting to share that with everyone in the world. Of course, I'd love to find out I could go dig some dirt out of my backyard and have it work the same. [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img] But if people are just examining it just to knock it down then that is kinda sad.

[jamesw]

Someone finally tested the stuff!!!! Here's a link to the page...but it's in German. Nevertheless, the data is still easy to interpret:
http://www.lars-sebralla.de/ma_miracle.html

So...what conclusions can we draw from this? Sure would be nice to know more about the test as well.
Cheers
James Wiseman