Reefs.org Forums

[liquid]

Snake Man is right. Rich from Marine Ecosystems is doing some testing on the tank with a Miracle Mud filter on it and he just wants to see how hard he can push the MM system, which includes keeping the lights out on it, not running macroalgaes, etc. So far it's been running pretty well for him from what I saw when I was down there a month ago.

fwiw,

liquid

[esmithiii]

kyguy: You don't feed your fish!?!! What kind do you have?

[Sue Truett]

This is my 180g. ecosystem reef. It is almost{October 6th} 10 months old. It is stable in that I only add kalk. 24/7 and Kents Superbuffer powder to maintain my alk. This tank has unbelievable sps coral growth, way more than my 120 has ever exhibited. Colonies grown to the rock etc. I attribute this to the mud system. I didn't add my caulerpa for 6 months after setting up this reef. Check out the pics and see for yourself, it does work.
my 180 ecosystem: http://berlinmethod.com/suet/
my 120 sps tank: http://suetruett.homestead.com/home.html www.marshreef.org/members

[ynot]

Hi Sue, can I ask how many pounds of mud you have in your sump? Any reason why you waited six months before adding the caulerpa...and when you did, was there any noticeable difference? The 180 looks fabulous, by the way.

[jamesw]

Frank: I think liquid (aka shane graber) brought up the very same point as you in another thread. He was comparing the contents of miracle mud to those of laterite soils.

HTH
James

[liquid]

Here's the thread James is referring to Frank:

http://www.reefs.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=029198

liquid

[FMarini]

Hi
all this discussion bring sup an interesting point.
So many people w/ FW tanks grow aquatic plants using special substrates, such as iron containing laterite(essentially an iron rich clay). Pure laterite is available as pellets, powders etc. Seachem also sells a product called flourite($15/20lb bag) which is a fracted ironed based clay.

So i'm wondering if people would have the same success by mixing in these iron rich substrates to your current DSB, and growing plants. it mightnot save much money over MM.
Just a thought
frank

[FMarini]

Guys:
here is some info on lateritic soils. Including some composition analysis.
This isn't a complete analysis or even describes what is the chemical composition in actual aquarium laterite (like from Aquarium pharm), it does show some interesting stuff. http://www.dupla.com/e037.htm

Also if your bored...here is the site for the natl soil sciences offices. http://vmhost.cdp.state.ne.us:96/STATE.HTML
they have plenty of online data
frank

[ October 02, 2001: Message edited by: FMarini ]

[Mouse]

What concerns me is not the capabilities of the miracle mud system, because at the end of the day there is nothing new about the 'system'. We have all seen refugeums before.

The only inovation here is the supply of a new refugeum substrate. Now what i want to know is that while these systems may be producing huge growth in Macro algies, is this growth actually beneficial to the export of toxins from our systems.


Basically is this mud 'aiding' the growth of macro algie causing 'further' removal of toxins from the water column than a conventional 'macro algal filter'.

Or is the water infact 'filtered' to a lesser degree than a conventional 'macroalgal filter' because the organic assimillation of toxins and nutrients is derived directly from the miracle mud.

Could be a dumb question, but i hope you get the jist of what im trying to say.

Posted this on another thread and got no reply,

[img]images/smiles/icon_sad.gif[/img]

Anyone know of an answer to this one????

[Carpentersreef]

Mouse,
I understand what you are trying to say. I agree that all it is a new substrate. I didn't buy the system setup, I bought the mud only and made it part of my DSB. In the past I was unable to grow calurpa, but had a lot of Bryposis growing. My hope is that I will be able to grow calurpa and it will take up the nutrients before the bryopsis has a chance to. My fish won't eat bryopsis, but they will eat the calurpa.
I guess my answer to your question is that I don't know yet, but i'm hoping to find out in the near future. I doubt anybody knows at this point.

Mitch

[liquid]

Mouse,

Read that thread I posted at the top of page #2 of this thread. I've posted my thoughts why the filter works. In a nutshell, I believe the bioballs act as a nitrate factory (break down tank waste in the water column) and that combined with a heavily laden iron substrate and phosphates from the food we feed promote Caulerpa growth. It seems that when nutrients are in the proper ratio that nuisance algae growth is minimized. There's a paper by Colins on The Krib (http://www.thekrib.com) in the Freshwater Planted Aquaria archive that goes over this in detail.

I really do NOT like the use of Caulerpa in this "filter" because of it's tendency to go "sexual" (i.e. crash) and the problems with it attaching to the substrate (I'm still trying to tear this %$#@ out of my display tank). I think if you're going to use this "filter" that you should use other macroalgaes like Chaetomorphia sp. that Midland Marine, Marine Ecosystems, and Inland Aquatics sells. Good stuff, grows fast, won't go "sexual", doesn't attach, grows dense and harbors a LOT of critters, etc.

I do believe it is exporting nutrients in the form of caulerpa, but my concern is what effect the iron in the substrate (a terrestrial element) is having on the system as a whole. I asked Eric Borneman what his thoughts were on some of the "effects" seen by people on their corals that they ascribe to the MM filter and you can read the results here: http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=39436

Heh, I wonder if Leng's following these threads... [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]

liquid

[jamesw]

Frank,

Great article about laterite! We both got a chance to see an "Ecosystem" refugium last night at the MARSH meeting, and the mud looked a lot like the mud shown in those laterite articles. It has that distinctive rusty brown color.

Cheers
James

[Mouse]

Liquid, i appreceate what your saying but at the end of the day if you were running a refugeum with 24/7 lighting then firstly the calurpa wont have a chance to go sexual. If your having problems growing the stuff then you 'should' dose with Iron, Kent makes a supliment now. And i have also been recomended to use this as a supliment by Randy (Reefs.org Guru).

This is going to be the bomb when some one figures this out. Do you even think we could have this guy done for misrepresentation. All the storys i have heard about this guys "miracle" systems is that the very system he used to pioneer this method received regular water changes from the ocean, not to mention the Bioload was comparible to that of the GARF bullet proof reef systems, i.e. one incredibly flourecent blue Damsel (gee wonder how he got like that). Leing also has made remarks that his mud has ammazing results in curing latteral line and head desease, seems like he thinks he had a bit of a marine 'Aloe Vera'. Can anyone back up this claim???

[ October 02, 2001: Message edited by: Mouse ]

[liquid]

FWIW, I'm not convinced that running lighting 24/7 will keep Caulerpa from "going sexual". That combined with it's nasty tendency to attach to stuff has me real leary about running it. Myself, I prefer not to chance it, but that's JMHO of course and others can freely disagree w/ me. [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

liquid

[ October 02, 2001: Message edited by: LiquidShaneo ]

[MattM]

I dropped off Miracle Mud samples today for analysis at a local lab. This is the same lab we used for the Combi-San analysis.

I want to get a complete analysis done because 1) the German analysis didn't record anything below 100 ppm, and 2) they rinsed their sample several times before testing, so any water soluable components might have been removed.

We should have the results in a week or so, and I'll post them on our web site.

Liquid - Did you get the samples we sent you?

[liquid]

Yep Matt, I got the samples Friday afternoon. Things have been a little crazy around here but I'll take the photos either tonite or tomorrow and e-mail them to you. My website is max'ed out right now for space so it'll probably make more sense for you guys to put them up.

I'm looking forward to seeing what results that lab gets for the MM samples. [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

liquid

[Carpentersreef]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MattM:
[QB]I dropped off Miracle Mud samples today for analysis at a local lab. This is the same lab we used for the Combi-San analysis.

Matt,
That's great. I imagine the tests are pricey, and I appreciate the effort (I'm sure we all do, actually). I would be more than happy to help contribute to the expense you're putting out. You can either email me an amount privately or on the board here, and I would be more than happy to send a cheque.

Thanks,
Mitch

[MattM]

It costs more than the Combi-San tests because there is more "sample prep" work to be done. I think they have to fire it to ash first.

It'll run us about $375. Don't worry about contrubutions, business is good. [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]

If you really want to send money our way, then just think of our online store next time you need something.