Reefs.org Forums

[ZeroMaintenance]

http://www.ecosystemaquarium.com (Miracle Mudd Sump) I have heard alot of good things about this stuff and was thinking of trying it but it's not cheap. I have yet to hear a horror story about it. Does anyone have any personal experience with this stuff? [img]images/smiles/icon_confused.gif[/img] [img]images/smiles/icon_confused.gif[/img] [img]images/smiles/icon_confused.gif[/img]

[MattM]

Read this thread and this thread

[Carpentersreef]

That's weird that you should ask... I was just about to post a new topic. I bought 40 lbs about 3 weeks ago and added it to my refugium. In the past I have bought lots of calerpa and it always died on me. Since I added the miracle mud, I bought some more calerpa, and it's GROWING! I think that Miracle Mud is overpriced, but my calerpa is growing, and that makes all the difference.
There are a few recent threads on the Mud, I suggest you search them out. Lots of sceptics. I am still one. I have never trusted anything marketed as "miracle". I need to learn more to determine if MM is the reason behind my recent calerpa success.

Mitch

[ September 27, 2001: Message edited by: Carpentersreef ]

[Carpentersreef]

Matt, where is that analysis that Tom was doing?

[liquid]

Considering that there's a @#$#@-load of iron in there it doesn't suprise me that your caulerpa's growing... [img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img]

liquid

[WWiley]

Carpentersreef I've been mixing a little laterite with my southtown sand for about 8 months. My caulerpa and Halimeda grow like crazy. Bill Wiley

[Carpentersreef]

WWiley, so how did you know to add laterite?

[SPC]

Laterite is used in FW planted tanks, I use it in mine. The good thing about it is that the iron is bound up in the laterite itself and is removed via the plant root system. When I used a liquid iron supplement I had constant problems with algae.
Steve

[MattM]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Carpentersreef:
<STRONG>Matt, where is that analysis that Tom was doing?</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

All he was going to do was get a soil analysis done on it. I don't think it's happened as he (and we) have been quite busy lately.

I am curious about the results published on that German web page. For one thing, they rinsed the sample three times before testing. There could be beneficial water soluable compounds or elements that were rinsed away prior to analysis. I am one of the aformentioned "skeptics", but I want an unbiased test result.

I have already sent a sample to LiquidShaneo to have good photomicrographs done - I will post them on our website when completed. I will also look into getting an un-rinsed sample tested by the same laboratory we used for Combi-San.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Carpentersreef:
<STRONG>No one keeps dumping beneficial chemicals in the ocean, right?</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, technically no one does that, but rain water breaks down rock and soil and the constituent elements are transported to the oceans by rivers. And there are dead coral skeletons and other animals constantly breaking down and getting ground up by wave action to provide calcium, strontium, magnesium, etc. Planet Earth may be a closed system, but the ocean certainly isn't.

However, I agree with your basic premise, I think most tanks are not hurting for trace elements as most people actually overdose them. We reccomend using a balanced supplement, like B-Ionic or equivalent, and then only adding other elements if you specifically want to raise that element above normal levels to benefit a specific animal, plant, or algae. For instance, you might want to elevate strontium levels for an SPS tank, or iron for caulerpa, or magnesium for mangroves, etc. But only if the tank is dominated by that plant or animal. The balanced supplement contains all you need for normal tanks.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Carpentersreef:
<STRONG>I saw the german analysis, and it is NOT the generalized backyard dirt.</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How do you know? I haven't had an elemental analysis of my backyard dirt done. If you have then please post the results! [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img] For all I know my dirt could be loaded with titanium, iron, aluminum, etc. Let's keep in mind where all these metals come from - they're rocks and minerals. When you break down rocks and minerals and add decayed plant matter, you get dirt.

To me, MM even smells like dirt. [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]

Anyway, I'll get moving on that analysis and let you all know what we turn up.

[Carpentersreef]

So where could I get iron for a reef otherwise?

[bowfront]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Carpentersreef:
<STRONG>So where could I get iron for a reef otherwise?</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Here http://www.premiumaquatics.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=PA&Product_Code=K-SIRONMAN16&Category_Code=Kent1
but you have to be real careful with iron because it encourages all kinds of algea growth not just macro.

[Carpentersreef]

Thanks bowfront,

BUT, in the link, it says to follow considerations such as use kent PH buffer AND use Kent Kalkwasser or turbo calcium AND Coral-vite, AND Essential Elements.....

It's hard to know who to believe, most of the time. I don't want to be a slave to buying bottles of chemicals constantly. No one keeps dumping beneficial chemicals in the ocean, right?
It can be frustrating, and I think that is what keeps a lot of people away from keeping aquariums. Without experience, who do you believe?
I saw the german analysis, and it is NOT the generalized backyard dirt. No one has been able to identify what is good or bad about it, other than cheezey marketing, which I acknowledge. It is regrettable. It raises nothing but suspicion. BUT my caulerpa is growing and nobody has died. I fear that if I had bought all the Kent chemicals, I could have overdosed, or underdosed, and may have caused some casualties.

Mitch

[ZeroMaintenance]

Thanks for all the opinions. It looks to me like there are alot of speculations but no evidence either way. I would love to see something definitive. I think I will wait and leave my sump alone since my caulerpa in it is doing fine with just some mud I got from my LFS's LR tank.

If it aint broke don't fix it.. [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]

[Snake Man]

a guy i know has a 29 gallon set up with miracle mud system. he has intentionally tried to crash the tank many times and hasnt been able to. using no skimmer either. he runs marine ecosystems, and wants to see if it works before he sales it. so far nothing but a little cyano growing

[esmithiii]

Who would intentionally try to "crash" their system? Sounds bogus to me. I could intentionally "crash" any system with 1/2 cup of bleach. These kinds of testimonials are what have thrown doubt on the product in the first place.

[Carpentersreef]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MattM:
[QB]

How do you know? I haven't had an elemental analysis of my backyard dirt done. If you have then please post the results! [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]

Matt, I guess I DON'T know that it is NOT backyard dirt just as much as you say it is, as you believe, and have said, in past threads.

[img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]

Does that make any sense? [img]images/smiles/icon_confused.gif[/img] [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]

Mitch

[Vins Fins]

I think its quite funny when people say that miracle mud makes their maco's grow and their happy about it [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] we use macro algae as a nutrient export theirfor if your algae is growing like crazy its because of nutrients in the mud. when we pull or havest the macro algae we remove nutrients from the system.so using the mud is going to increase the nutrients in your system. now the purpose of the macro is to use it to export fish / coral waste and fish food. this is the proper way to utilize your macro algaes, the algae will grow like crazy if you feed your fish, then you can harvest 1/2 of your algae which will remove the nutrients in your system. miracle mud is an unnessary extra nutrient in your reef that is not needed.I have a 200 gal sump/pond and you would not belive how much calurpa i grow in two weeks, i feed my lg angel fish 5 times a day. my pond fills up from end to end with calurpa, just yesterday i havested a large bag of it and gave it to a friend. calurpa is the answer not miracle mud.

[Carpentersreef]

No I don't think so. I used to feed my fish and corals a LOT, and still no calerpa would grow. I've cut back feeding now and added MM and the calerpa is finally growing.

Mitch

[kyguy]

I wrote a slightly longer post on the other thread, but in a short, more concise version, I'll try to say what happened again. Have had a 75 reef up for 15 years, about 8 or 9 months ago put on the miracle mud sump, tank has definately nover looked better, clearer, corals more open, etc. Have witnessed fish come back from being destroyed by HLLE, and have only added water to make up for evaporation. Don't feed fish, don't add any supplements, don't do water changes. Nitrates have stayed under 5 since after the 5th month. Have never heard of one person who has used Miracle Mud who hasn't sworn by it after having it on their system for more than 2 months. Sure it's expensive at first, but with the results I've seen, after the money you save on salt from water changes, and adding all your trace elements, it ends up being way cheaper than anything else.

[Vins Fins]

Lighting plays a large roll in getting calurpa to grow, i find it easy to grow caurpa in a sump with flo plant bulbs or even pc's, home depot sells a regular screw in 15 watt daylight made by philips that works great.
As for water changes i only use my skimmer to remove water, never have done an actual water change. I have nothing against MM but what i can say that is true is that i don't need it to have an incredibly healthy and great looking reef. If you are adding DT's and other foods then many things in a reef are feeding and breeding which will intern feed your corals causing them to open and make your tank look great. Those of you using MM and getting good results, keep up the good work, those of you that are just starting a reef and are limited on a budget, HD sand seeded with some LS from a friend and given some calurpa for free is probly a good way to start.