Reefs.org Forums

[JeremyR]

Just wanted to throw this one out there.. many wholesalers don't run lights on their coral systems assuming they will sell all corals in a weeks time or less, and I've recieved a wide range of salinities (1.010-1.027). If a wholesaler was asking YOU what they should be using for lighting for that week or 2 of coral holding, and what salinity to keep fish & coral at, what would your opinion be?

FWIW, I keep both fish & inverts at 1.025 in shop, and run mostly metal halide, some PC.. but I wouldn't expect a wholesaler to run all halide considering the short term of the tank.. but no lights I definitely have a problem with.

[Rover]

The wholesaler that I have visited in Atlanta doesn't run lights, but they have giant skylights over their holding area. Really brings out a lot of color in the livestock. Though that was unique way to get around the lighting ssue, although I'm sure they're not the only ones.

Glenn

[farmertodd]

Jeremy,

I would want the wholesaler to run metal halide to keep my relayed cost down. 1 400 watt halide can light 4 50 breeders adequately with differing light zones for short term holding.

When I had my shop, I expected to see 1.022+ (preferring 1.024-1.026) and expect the same from any LFS now. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and inquire... Any resistance or that "oh yeah you keep it real high like NSW or something" and they don't see any more of my green. Less than 1.022 "back home" for the animals is akin to a marginal river flood run off where diversity takes a dive, and I can only imagine (I'll even say observed) that it's nothing less than unnecessary stress for the critters to save a dollar here a dollar there on salt.

Todd

[farmertodd]

Bill,

It works in practice too. In fact a decent shop in Columbus, Ohio uses this very same setup to do Sarco and other soft coral prop, as well as displays. The light is about 18" off the center of the 4 tanks. Of course, the SPS are lit more robustly.

Let's say I got in 40 fungias. I'd then have 18 sqare feet of well lit bottom to put them all on. And I wouldn't even have to stack one on top of the other, like so many do! And all that came from one light, with one lamp that takes as much energy to power as it does to power 10 40 watt flourescents or 4 vho or etc etc.

Even if you were using GE Daylights, that's still 10 lamps you have to replace every 6 months, which is still $100 per year (I know I know.. I'm dreaming if they're replacing anything before it burns out [img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img]

Do I have to whip out my "Home Improvement Mega-Store" business model for lighting efficiency? [img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img]

The ticket here is... How many animals are left after the initial rush on the new arrivals weekly? If I had 5 fungia left from my 40 and they didn't bleach out... Gee. I think I just paid for my one little light. Think about it.

Now, I do understand that they don't have 10 floros over any tank... Heck I was impressed there was any light on the systems when we took our tour. It was very disturbing to be crawling around in the dark in the back corner of one unnamed wholesaler, only to find a magnificient orange digitate montiporid, sitting there.. in the dark.. cold... and alone.

However, I think our forum here is what you'd like to see different or changed... And that's what suggestions I'll be making.

Todd

[MaryHM]

Ok, I'll throw caution and common sense to the wind and let you guys know how I do it. [img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img] If you flame me, I'll close this thread so fast... [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

I have two tanks that I keep sps and clams in. These tanks have 400wt halides. I don't keep most montipora in there, because I've found that it will turn brown on me within a week. When acropora first arrives, it goes in the "high flow, flourescent lighting" tank and then is moved to the halide tank after a few days. Same with Fiji Yellow Leathers. (Sarcophyton elegans). I experiment by putting different things in the halide tanks periodically and seeing what happens. For instance, right now I have a bunch of Indonesian Green Ricordia in there. I have found that it holds its color MUCH better, and in fact has even gotten better, by being under the halides.

The majority of the tanks have 2 flourescent bulbs over them. One is a Corallife 20000k and one is a Corallife actinic. The tank that I take my See It Before You Buy It pics in does not run actinic. There are a few tanks that have no lighting. This is where I keep things like stylaster and red chili corals.

This set up works very well for me. Now that we are setting up the new fish building, we have more room in the coral tanks because we've moved the fish tanks off the top of them. We're going to add 2 more halide tanks because I expect to be bringing in more sps from our Fiji supplier.

[Adam]

Mary!!!

Your handling technique and lighting choices sound excellent, especiall since you are taking the time to experiment with how different animals respond.

But, (no flame intended <VBG> [img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img] Stylaster??? Do you know anyone maintaining this long term?

Adam

[MaryHM]

I haven't had any feedback on it, so I'm not sure. I make sure that all of my customers know it's a cave dwelling (low/no light) coral that MUST be fed.

[MaryHM]

Just realized I didn't address the salinity question.

We pump in natural sea water and maintain a salinity of 1.023 in our coral system. I am seriously considering running the new fish system at 1.018 because I've heard it's easier on fish that are stressed and it helps to control parasites. This knowledge is pretty much based on my experience from working at other wholesalers, so I don't know if it's a good idea or not [img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img] Comments?

[farmertodd]

Mary,

I liken Hyposalinity to Altitude Sickness. Won't kill you unless you go too far, but it's unnecessary stress resulting from bad planning. In this case, the animals can't just start walking back down the mountain.

You'll also note that in a few posts up, I said I wouldn't buy from you (if I had a shop) if you did. Others may not care, but I'd have an issue.

Todd

[flameangel]

Mary,,
Sorry, but I do not think it is easier on the fish to be at 1.018 and it sure makes it hard to aclimate new arrivals for us retailers.
I keep all my fish holding tanks at 1.0235.

CQuest fish come in at 1.024 and ORA fish come in at 1.0235.
When a wholesaler sends fish in at your lower salinity, it means lowering the salinity in my current "new fish" tanks and then raising it up to normal levels over a period of days !!!. Unless one has tons of extra tanks-this is a problem. I do hold fish for a week or a month, depending on when they are eating/acting "normal", before selling them.
But, that lower salinity makes it harder on them and holding time is much longer,also. (in my experience)

[liquid]

I have to agree w/ Todd on this Mary and I also believe Jeremy commented on this as well in his opening post. Heh, even your sig should answer your own question for you:

"AN EDUCATED HOBBYIST DEMANDS AN ETHICAL AND SUSTAINABLE INDUSTRY"

Is it ethical to keep fish at a hyposalinity condition? IMHO, no, it isn't. You're stressing them by putting them at this low of a salinity and what about the hobbyists that have their tanks at 1.025 sg? The fish have to go thru a stressful salinity change to get back up to what many people are keeping their salinities at. My opinion is to minimize the stress as much as possible. Heh, you're getting your water pumped directly from the ocean, aren't you? [img]images/smiles/icon_razz.gif[/img]

I, too, would pass on a fish that's been kept at a hyposalinity condition. FWIW, the "evidence" that hyposalinity gets rid of parasites is anecdotal at best.

My $0.02...

Shane (aka 'liquid')

[ December 12, 2001: Message edited by: LiquidShaneo ]</p>

[flameangel]

LiquidShaneo,
I agree on this completely !!
Being caught in the first place and shipping are enough stress to begin with on the fish.
And STRESS is the main killer in this hobby!!
We need to maintain as close as possible to what the fish had for a normal life ,before we got them.
Impossible- but we can try our best wherever we have any control to do so.
We do have that control over salinity.

[Rover]

Why is it stressful to keep fish at a lower salinity? Isn't it easier for them to breathe? Something about it being easier for them to osmoregulate in lower salinities? Marine fish being hyposmotic (the ocean is saltier than thier innards) constantly have to drink water to keep from dehydrating. As the salinity of the water is lowered the gradient between outside and inside becomes less and osmotic stress is reduced. There is no reason to maintain this long term, but when a fish already has a million other stressors placed on it from shipping process it seems that being able to reduce one area of stress would be beneficial. The energetics of body maintenance are reduced allowing more "energy" to fight disease and parasites and infection. It's been a while since ichthyology so some one correct me if I've got it screwed up.

Glenn

[Bill2]

Most of the wholesalers I've been to run metal halide over their sps tanks and clam tanks and some type of flour. over the rest of their corals.

I have no idea on salinity on wholesalers tanks. I would expect it to be around NSW.

I don't think the 400w over a couple breeder tanks would work. It works in theory but not organazationaly. A wholesaler might get in 40 fungias and typically puts them in one tank so when they have to go pull one or 5 or 40 they are all in one area. But 1 400 will keep em healthy long enough to ship out since this is typically less than 1 week they hope.

I don't really like it but in a hobby where someone bitches about paying $2 more for a captive raised fish, pennies on lighting make a difference in the long run.

Bill

[MaryHM]

Ok. I'm convinced. Glad I asked! All of our fish are currently held in the coral system at 1.023 and are fine. I just got engrained with the 1.018 idea somewhere along my 13 years doing this so that's what I thought was right. So here's straight up proof that YOU GUYS have changed the mind of an importer. That's what this forum is all about- everyone learning from each other. Glad to see it at work!!

[farmertodd]

"You must unlearn what you have learned. Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will..."
- Yoda

Todd [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]

[Rover]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr> That's part of the theory.. but i don't buy it. If it was easier for htem to regulate their systems, then there would be no problem with long term survival in a low salinity.. but I don't think any of us would intentionally keep our fish long term in a hyposalinity situation. I've seen no evidence that this is beneficial, and I've known plenty of people who ran their tanks sub 1.020 that still had serious parasitic outbreaks.

<hr></blockquote>

Not saying that it has any effect on parasites, simply that it may not neccessarily be that stressful to the fish. Similar to humans and temperature regulation. In winter our bodies have to work harder to maintain body temperature thus depleting energy resources and the immune system suffers. The less work the body has to do to maintain itself the more enrgy available for growth and immunity. We make no attempt to ship fish at "normal" temperatures because it wouldn't be all that beneficial and fish ship better in cooler water any way. I think the salinity is similar. Ship the fish in cooler water, at lower salinity, results in less stress for the fish, greater available oxygen and fewer fatalities. At the retailer they can be brought to NSW conditions and then sold to the customer.

Glenn

[JeremyR]

<<Ship the fish in cooler water, at lower salinity, results in less stress for the fish, greater available oxygen and fewer fatalities. At the retailer they can be brought to NSW conditions and then sold to the customer.>>

I guess I'm arguing whether I believe that's true. I generally have little to no DOA's on fish from NSW suppliers, but I always had problems with people who hold/ship in low salinity.

[Rover]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote

I generally have little to no DOA's on fish from NSW suppliers

Do you mean actual natural sea water? or natural sea water conditions using synthetic salt?

Glenn

[JeremyR]

Both actually.. most of my stuff from LA comes in catalina water (NSW), and the ORA stuff I'm assuming is synthetic.. but then again they are in florida, so that could be NSW too. Not sure on that.