Reefs.org Forums

[MaryHM]

I'll be seeing Bob Fenner Saturday at a Christmas party. I'll take the list and get some feedback from him.

[Tim Tessier]

Thanks James,

You know how to make a guy feel welcome.

I hope that I can add some constructive opinions/thoughts every now and again based on my experiences "working at a cool job", actually its more than a job, it's a labour of love.

Cheers,
Tim

[MaryHM]

Ok. I've moved all the ones that have documented evidence showing that they are obligate feeders to the Unsuitable Species List thread. Here are the ones that we need to get more information on:

C. citrinellus
Chaetodon capistratus
Chaetodon humeralis
C. guentheri
C. guttatissimus
C. marcellae
C. nigropunctatus
C.trichrous
C. tricinctus
Chaetodon ocellatus
Chaetodon oxycephalus
Chaetodon pelewensis
Chaetodon plebius
Chaetodon rainfordi
Chaetodon semeion
Chaetodon striatus

[MaryHM]

During the 4 years that I worked for other wholesale companies, I have seen practically every one of those butterflies imported regularly. Mainly those from Indonesia and Philippines. I have not been involved in import from those countries for the past 3 years, so I'm unsure of their importation amounts now.

[naesco]

I have the feeling that Fenner did not detail all of the butterflyfish reasons for entry on the list owing to space contraints in the book and what he attempted to do was say that when he made the comment "I have been in the business for 30 years and here is my opinion comment."
It would be nice to know if this is his reason for not giving more information.
The other thing I found out is there is not very much info one these ones which leads me to believe they are not commonly imported. Do you know?
Tim
Chilliwack, eh

[SAT]

Not sure if you're looking for individual experiences, but here goes. I was surprised to see C. striatus on the list. I had a pair I collected myself in St. Croix about 30 years ago (in about 3' of water under a dock, of all places). That was in my early days of fish keeping, so you can assume no special expertise was applied.

In any case, those fish were anything but shy and ate like pigs (mostly flake food, which was my favorite food back then). I had them for about 3 months before they succumbed to some disease, along with a bunch of other fish (my recollection of the details is a little vague as you might imagine).

In any case, I can assure you they did not die of starvation.

[Rover]

Just wanted to bump this up.

[MaryHM]

I'm still waiting for a reply from Fenner on the butterflies in question. In the meantime, I don't want this list to lose it's momentum, so we're going to move on to the next set of critters- sweetlips and wrasses. This should be an interesting one! I edited the Unsuitable Species List and added a new section "Animals in need of further discussion"- the butterflies have been moved to there for now. We'll discuss the sweetlips and wrasses in the new "USL- Sweetlips & Wrasses" Thread.

[MaryHM]

Ok. I found some time to start trying to sort through that list of butterflies we had in the "further discussion" category. Here's what I've found.

C. capistratus- Feeds mainly on zoantharians, polychaete worms, gorgonians and tunicates.

Chaetodon humeralis- Algae and benthic inverts
C. guentheri- Algae and benthic invertebrates
C. guttatissimus- Feeds on polychaetes, coral polyps, and algae
C. marcellae- I can't find any information.
C. nigropunctatus- Feeds on coral polyps
C.trichrous- I can't find any information.
C. tricinctus- I can't find any information on this fish's diet, but Fish Base says it is RARELY imported.
Chaetodon ocellatus- Worms, plants, crustaceans
Chaetodon oxycephalus- coral polyps and anemones
Chaetodon pelewensis- Quote from Fish Base "Adapts itself easily to tank life and willingly accepts nearly all kinds of food offered"
Chaetodon plebeius - coral polyps
Chaetodon rainfordi -Feeds on algae and small benthic invertebrates
Chaetodon semeion - algae & benthic inverts
Chaetodon striatus- Feeds on polychaete worms, coral polyps, crustaceans and mollusc eggs

[Fredfish]

Mary (or anyone):

The natural prey information is good, but how does this translate into aquarium suitability?

For those that feed on benthic organisms, are they able to make the switch to non-live foods?

I am curious to hear your ecperiences with butterflies if you have any.

I think that it would also be good to generate a list of hardy butterflies: those that are known to adapt to captivity easily, those that can adapt but are more difficult to get to eat, etc...

This is my biggest frustration in choosing fish. There is often conflicting information on fish such as these and it leaves me as a hobbyist frustrated.

Fred.

[MaryHM]

Fred,

The purpose of the list we are doing right now is to target known obligate feeders. Fish that are "difficult" feeders will be put on another list we will work on at a later time. I don't really have any experience with butterflies because I rarely import them. IMO, if you aren't positive that the butterfly you have your eye on is a hardy one, steer clear. Many of the species I've seen imported regularly are on on obligate feeder list.

[naesco]

Fred take a look at www.wetwebmedia.com/poorchaetodons.htm
Robert Fenner lists the impossible to keep species which are the subject mattter of these threads.
However you can also see the balanced approach he has because he also has a list of the good ones and the more difficult ones as well.
The ones we are talking about on the list are the ones which are obligate feeders which should be bannned in my opinion.

[naesco]

The noted Aquarium Frontiers had an article which can be found under www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/aqfm/1998/dec/newbie/default.asp It is by Randy Donowitz and it lists the fish to be avoided (fish with incredibly low survivability in aquaria)
Pretty well all of the fish on our list are listed there including the ribbon eel, moorish idol etc.

[MaryHM]

I am good friends with Randy Donowitz. I'll contact him and see if I can get him to weigh in here.

[samurai9]

anyone had experience with the longnose butterfly(don't know the latin)?

[naesco]

Samarai both the Atlantic (aculeatus) and big long-nosed (forcipiger longirostris) long-nosed butterflyfish are good to keep butterflys according to Robert M Fenner and John Turlock.
I have seen them often but have never kept them.
Thank you

[ATJ]

I thought I'd add my experiences with Chaetodon spp. as I have success with quite a few on the "poor" list. I should add that most of these are caught locally in Sydney during Summer and Autumn (and even early Winter). The larvae are carried down the east Australian coast by the East Australia Current and deposited at various places - some of these places tend to be hot spots. The smaller the fish are when they are caught, the better they tend to do in captivity.

For a list of the species we can catch, please see: Collecting - Species on my site. (mmm, I need to update it as it is missing a few species.)

Of course, catching your own fish and getting them to an aquarium within a few hours will be completely different from those collected on the our side of the world and imported into the US. Nevertheless, the information should be interesting.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote

Chaetdodon flavirostris Usually shy and non-feeding. Eats coral polyps, other bottom-dwelling invertebrates and algae in the wild. . Way too often sold to the hobby as juveniles... they don't live. This one isn't on Tullock's list either.

These are probably the most common seen Chaetodon around Sydney and prove to be very hardy. They start to feed almost immediately and I have kept specimens for over 12 months.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote

Chaetodon pelewensis Not on Tullock's list. No reason given for poor survival

While I have personally not caught any of this species myself (but have helped friends catch them), those that I have kept did very well and survived in the tank for multiple years.

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Chaetodon plebius No reason given for poor survival

These are supposedly obligate coral feeders. I recently a juvenile (not in Sydney but further north) and it was just starting to feed on Artemia nauplii when it (and the rest of the inhabitants of the tank) succumbed to Amyloodinium. A friend also caught one at the same time and his is still going strong two months later.
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote

Chaetodon vagabundus In the wild feeds on anemones, coral polyps, worms and algae. Not on Tullock's list.

Another common species around Sydney that does well in tanks.

One of the biggest problems I have found with Chaetodon spp. is they do not mix well together at all. I once tried a C. auriga, C. citrinellis, C. flavirostris and C. vagabundus in the same tank (48x14x18). The C. auriga was the most dominant and constantly harassed the other 3. The C. citrinellus lasted nearly 2 months because of the stress and not being allowed to feed. I had to move the C. vagabundus out after 1.3 months. The C. flavirostris stayed in the tank for 8 months, but was regularly having minor "Ich" infections due to the stress and so I moved it to another tank.

[ January 04, 2002: Message edited by: ATJ ]</p>