Reefs.org Forums

[Fishaholic]

Should we keep killing vast amounts of wild caught fish and corals that can be "produced" with zero impact to the reefs?

For those still looking to flame me because I fully beleive any board that allows someone with such a huge conflict of intrest to be a moderator, well I am sure you will tire of it sooner or later. Through many personal e-mails people have convinced me to stay and not be silenced because of the fact that I really cannot beleive of the conflict of intrest. I once tried to convince Wayne to return to this board and now he and some others have convinced me to do the same.

Just so no-one thinks I am seeting them up for a sucker punch, this is my view.

I believe all Corals should be banned from importation. We have many that can be fragged, we as reefkeepers can sustain this hobby and move it forward. Some wholesalers will see the bans comming and start fragging now, also LFS owners are already producing some of what they sell and using their costumers to produce for them. The day we produce what we consume we have accomplished one of the greatest conservation efforts that any livestock keeper has ever done. Live Rock can be aquacultered and is. I have always asked people to buy it, for conservation reasons and also to further our hobby.

[cjdevito]

Glad you decided to stick around, Dave. [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]

[newreefman1]

I agree that tank cultured corals is the best route but there is great cost in having a large large scale prop farm and there would have to be TONS of them to supply the trade that we reefers are obsessed with.

Dont get me wrong, im not for destroying the reefs, but just like they replace live rock, they can replace corals and also corals grow and are renewable(albeit at a slow rate).

One day when theres no war or poverty, well stop importing corals, or when power bills lower and equipment pricing comes down but for now, reponsible gathering should be allowed. IMO.
Jason.

[MaryHM]

I think it all comes down to what the sole purpose is. If it's to save the reefs, then I do not think that a total ban on importation is the answer, and there were many scientists at the Marine Ornamentals conference that agree with me. The whole issue revolves around one word- SUSTAINABILITY. It is imperative that any harvest for any industry of any resource is done sustainably. Reef Check is currently doing tremendous work determining the sustainability and necessary reef management protocols for various collection sites. I also believe that aquaculture plays an important role- especially for animals that are deemed unsustainable. Honestly, I see nothing wrong with importing animals that can be aquacultured but that have been proven that the wild populations can be sustainably harvested. Here is a quote from an article I recently wrote:

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote

Although we will be starting a stateside coral farm, I do not believe that is the answer to protecting the reefs from industry damage. I think it is far more important to institute aquaculture programs overseas to provide an income and sense of resource protection for the native peoples. If we ban all importation of corals, it will have a two-fold impact: First, the divers that are now collecting for the industry will not just quit diving- that is their only means of earning income. They would simply begin diving for even more destructive industries such as the food fish industry. Second, if we ban the import of all corals we would destroy the in-situ coral farms that are already in place in countries such as the Solomon Islands and Fiji. It would take years for the government to establish guidelines for the import of aquacultured corals, and in that time those farms would go bankrupt.

The paper can be read in it's entirety here http://www.reefsource.com/sustainable_industry.htm

I will concede the fact that not all collection areas are currently managed properly. However, the move toward industry reform has made more progress in the last 2 years than it has in the previous 13 that I've been around. It's just a matter of time before all major collection sites have been researched and given a report concerning sustainable harvest. I, for one, can't wait for that day. In fact, we are trying to push along the process for our station in Fiji to have the collection areas researched asap.


One more thing everyone should think about. If the import of all corals and fish were banned today and we had to rely solely on what could be produced in the United States, what do you think would happen to the dry good companies that supply the hobby with the necessities of reefkeeping (salt, lighting, tanks, etc...). Honestly, I don't think there's enough propagating going on to carry the industry and make it worthwhile for these companies to continue to produce reef-exclusive products.

[Fishaholic]

Mary you speak of sustainability as if the amount of people keeping reefs will remain static and that the reefs will remain static also.

Both of these statements are growing in different directions. We are bringing in more hobbyists every day and through development and pollution the reefs are dying more and more every year.

With the amount of people coming to this hobby it is not a question of if the wild reefs can sustain the supply but when the will not and then how much damage have we inflicted to them.

If we move now, we may save these havens that only occupy less than 1 percent of the ocean for generations to come.

[naesco]

Glad to have you back.
There is an opportunity to import aquacultured rock, coral and fish.
I read on this forum that some species of angels are raised in Taiwan. That's good.
I don't know if it is still happening but many clams were being raised in south-east Asia.
I think we will soon see aquacultured 'frags imported grown offshore.
It is not taking from the reef that bothers me, it is taking species that has almost nil chance of surviving.

[MaryHM]

Fishaholic- A reef management plan is not a one time shot. It is usually monitored on a yearly basis and adjusted accordingly.

Naesco- Clams are being aquacultured and regularly imported from many parts of the world including Solomon Islands and Marshall Islands. We are already seeing the importation of coral frags grown in the ocean in places like Fiji and the Solomon Islands.

[Rover]

I don't see a problem with importing fish or other inverts that can also be aquacultured. The more valuable that can be derived from a pristine reef by the locals the "protected" the reef really is.

I think wholesalers should stop imported impossible to species.

I think the collection should (and can) be done in a sustainable manner.

Glenn

[MickAv8r]

Well there is not much of a reason to collect wild clowns, however there still needs to be a method for those raising clowns to introduce new genes. No matter how successful breeding programs are we will always need to occasionally introduce new genes to the pool.

But I agree, for instance there is absolutely no reason for Cataline Gobies to appear on availabilities.

Sustainability can take into account the hobby's growth. And just like captive propagating can cut demand demand on wild corals, it can also be used to provide the indigenous peoples with a similar income.

[SPC]

I understand that Walt Smith has a large on site aquaculter operation going for L/R and corals. Any first hand knowledge of how this operation is working Mary?
To answer the question posed in this thread I will say yes. There is no reason not to import wild animals if their numbers are sustainable and they have a good chance for survival in the hobbiest tanks.
Steve

[Chucker]

Steve- I suggest you prod jameso with a pointy stick. He has seen the operation up close and personal.

[liquid]

I certainly hope you don't have any wild caught frags in your tank Dave... [img]images/smiles/icon_razz.gif[/img]

Shane (aka 'liquid')

[MaryHM]

At the Marine Ornamentals conference, Walt said that he has about 80,000 frags in the ocean right now and is having a hard time selling any of them.

[VkeSu]

Through the balance of nature, us being a predator, won't the fish replete themselves? As long as their habitat is taken care of? Shouldn't we be more concerned with the polutions being dumped into our oceans? The oils killing mass populations of fish and wildlife? If the habitat dies, then the animals die. If we get only wild caught, and the great barrier reef is envolved in a major disaster, we would be doing damage from heavy collections in that area. I do believe in home grown frags and fish when possible. They would be less stressed and hardier (which I think has been proven imo). Why get in animals when there is a slim chance of it living? I find no pleasure in watching it die. Send the "limited fish" to special breeders, who hopefully can share them with us in the future.

[MaryHM]

VkeSu:


<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote

If we get only wild caught, and the great barrier reef is envolved in a major disaster, we would be doing damage from heavy collections in that area.

I don't think anyone is saying that the hobby should only be sustained with wild caught animals. The hobby should consist of three things: Responsible collection, Aquaculture, and Education.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote

Why get in animals when there is a slim chance of it living? I find no pleasure in watching it die. Send the "limited fish" to special breeders, who hopefully can share them with us in the future.

This is exactly what we're working on in the Responsible Reefing Thread- hope to see you there!

[Fishaholic]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by LiquidShaneo:
<strong>I certainly hope you don't have any wild caught frags in your tank Dave... [img]images/smiles/icon_razz.gif[/img]

Shane (aka 'liquid')</strong><hr></blockquote>

Shane

I have not purchased any corals that were not fragged by Jim at Exotic Fish. I do have some collected species that were given to me by a freind who broke down his system and wanted to see that they did not die. I also have 3 fish that I would not buy but again same freind wanted to make sure they would have good care.

[Fishaholic]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by MaryHM:
<strong>Fishaholic- A reef management plan is not a one time shot. It is usually monitored on a yearly basis and adjusted accordingly.</strong><hr></blockquote>

If the outcome of a fast growing hobby and reefs receeding are that easily predictable why wait. Why not do what would give the reefs the best opportunty for growth. I am aware ther are factors that impactthe reefs more than this hobby but why should we have a negative impact when it is entirely unneccasary?

I agree with Toms point of replenishing the gene pool.

Corals though this is just not neccesary.

[MaryHM]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote

If the outcome of a fast growing hobby and reefs receeding are that easily predictable why wait.

I'm not sure what you mean...Clarify please.

[cjdevito]

At the Marine Ornamentals conference, Walt said that he has about 80,000 frags in the ocean right now and is having a hard time selling any of them.

Mary, I suspect this is largely because no one can find them. Since Walt started offering them, I've only found -one- dealer (FFX) that has carried any, and they've done so in a halfhearted fashion, only offering a handful (and generally lackluster ones at that) at a time.

When Bob Mankin was selling the frags from the old Solomons operation, he had no problems finding customers -- but he dealt directly with the public. Walt may be finding it hard to sell his frags to retailers and wholesalers (especially retailers, if I remember what his minimum order requirements were correctly), but it's not that hobbyists don't want them.

[LilBugger225]

I whole heartedly support aquaculture. I am willing to pay extra for corals/clams/etc that have been fragged or bred in captivity. Unfortunatly not everyone is willing to pay more. It has been shown that any in situ conservation of these animals (ie. coral farms, fish breeding facilities etc.) is more expensive than harvesting directly from the reef. Therefore, the livestock may be more expensive. Unfortunatly there are too many people out there that just want to have the quality of equipment to just "get by" and use such phrases as "Is this enough light for my clam to SURVIVE?" I live on a budget, but I feel that when we are dealing with beautiful living things, we should house them accordingly. If there were more people such as Fishaholic and any other reefer that supports aquaculture then there would be more of a demand for it. Unfortunatly there aren't enough and that is one reason why there is still harvest out on the reef. I am not saying that harvest of some fishes is not sustainable, but when you harvest difficult species where the majority are doomed to die in tanks in less than a year, what good is that doing? Ok I'm done venting...

Erica [img]images/smiles/icon_cool.gif[/img]