Reefs.org Forums

[MandarinFish]

"Not enough proof, according to us. We'll look into it. In the meantime let's drill for oil in this pristine wilderness."

[Chucker]

I think the point being made here is that it is just as (or even more) irresponsible to make a decision based on bad information than no information. The other problem I see in most of these threads is that no one states when the data was researched. 99% or 80% may indeed be good numbers, but they may not reflect the state of things today.

[MaryHM]

VkeSu:

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote

In other words, if you don't have the exact report (which is non-existant) or the exact percentage(which is non-existant at this time) don't mention an approximate death toll. It makes the wholsalers look bad

VkeSu, you have to read what I posted. I said that if you say "alot" or "most" die (those are words that indicate approximations) that you won't get an arguement from me. But saying 90% of species X dies, that is not an approximation, like you mentioned in your post. It is a solid number. And honestly, the figures don't just make the wholesalers look bad. They make the retailers and the hobbyists look just as horrible. Wholesalers are not experiencing most of the death in the industry- it mainly occurs at the retail and hobbyist levels. And no, I'm not saying that the wholesalers aren't at fault so one of you better not say that! [img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img] They are at fault for importing hard to keep animals, but the hobbyists are just as much at fault for demanding them.

[Rover]

100% of all animals die.

[VkeSu]

I agree with you on the supply and demand...but it has to start ..or stop...somewhere. The wholesale level would have to cut profits, to make a point (don't see that happening)...and we have "peer pressure" on the hobbist side to have something to look as nice as someone elses. Sad but true to a lot of people.

All animals die, but not with a life lived of only 2 weeks!!

[SPC]

VkeSue, so where do you propose it "starts...stops"
Steve

[Bomber]

Would you guys like a little background on the birds vs. fish pet industry?

The real reason that birds were banned in the first place was because the California Poultry lobby was stronger than the Pet Bird lobby. The poultry farmers were very convincing and managed to create a mass hysteria based on sketchy evidence that several parrot/imported bird diseases were able to infect their poultry. (Did anyone mention migratory birds? [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img] )

Anywho, it really doesn't matter what happens to flora or fauna once it's removed from it's habitat. If it lives fine, if it dies fine. The real problem is having regulations in place that allow a certain habitat to be viably farmed in the first place and being able to sustain that sort of controlled harvest.

On another note, where birds have been farmed successfully in the wild, that is double and sometimes triple clutched, the native populations have not only risen but have become more stable. The natives realizing that they are a source of income and thus a viable resource. Check with Dick Schroder in California, he has several of these sites around the world now and provides toucans, several of the macaws, and other soft bills and hook bills. Also Danny at Penguin International in Miami is doing this. I could list more but you get the picture. This is on site farming, it does work.

Jerel

[VkeSu]

SPC ..As I mentioned in another post...it looks like the wholesalers are tired of paying for items that die during shipping to customers. (ex. no guarentee on some shipped items). That to me is a start. I sure don't want to pay for something that has a low likelyhood of survival in just getting to me! I'm pleased that I know some of the items to stay away from. We as knowledgeable hobbiest need to respect that, and stop purchasing or trying to get items that we know are hard/impossible to keep unless we are 100% dedicated in trying to help raise and farm them. (my personal feelings are; if I'm not going to try to dedicate myself in raising certain species to help out, I'm sure not going to just buy and hope they live). Someday a true dedicated hobbiest w/ raise more difficult fish( as we see the tank raised fish/corals now as compared with 10 years ago.) 4 years ago I purchased a carpet anemone...yes it died.

[VkeSu]

My husband says it's like a Pinto...no supply no demand (because they blow up) . [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img] He's so helpful!