Reefs.org Forums

[SPC]

The question is still why would they ship a live animal knowing that it has a good chance of dying due to cold weather? This sort of practice makes no sense to me and you can bet it will be used as excellent ammunition for those wanting to shut down this hobby.
Steve

[esmithiii]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr> I wouldn't bet that they care about the livestock any more than any other retailer - just that they care about taking a loss. It simply means that if no one signs for the delivery, or if the delivery is refused, then the shipper is out its money, since the CC company won't make a customer pay for an item they didn't receive, and the returned livestock will probably be DOA when it gets back to the shipper.

<hr></blockquote>

You might be right there. I hadn't thought of that. This company specializes in captive propogated species, and tank reared species. Here is a quote from the first line in their mission statement:

"[our] primary mission is the conservation of our ocean resources"

Maybe that is a ruse, maybe not.

E

[VkeSu]

Unfortunatly it takes money to stay in business...bottom line... A LOT of money. They used to sell all, little by little, I see things changing with my online suppliers (ex. prop.corals, coral farming, tank raised items, ) 4 years ago, I saw very little of this, talk about it yes, but not a lot of suppliers. Hopefully this "warning to others" is a way to forewarn current hobbist that these won't always be sent out. If a few suppliers stopped shipping certain items ( like a personal ban). Many hobbiest would just get angry and mouthy on some BB. [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img] . I see changes coming..good and bad. But it seems to me we as the retail group, knowing better make most of the decisions. If there is no demand, they are not going to keep supplying it. They don't want the hard to sell items just taking up space, they keep what is going to sell....or what we are going to buy. My $ .02

[VkeSu]

What I feel is that times are changing. People getting interested now, will have the internet more to use so they will know that the lfs is not always the best place for info. (how sad). Maybe the new owners in the future will be more knowledgable starting out which in turn will also promote more loyality w/customers returning. I know them taking a loss isn't what they went into business for.

[MickAv8r]

If you have integrity and show some care in your selection process you can be in business without selling the questionable animals.

In fact if I started stocking unsuitable species I'd probably go out of business because they simply don't live long enough to make it through my turnover before dying either from shipping stress or starvation or whatever makes them unsuitable.

If you look at my livestock guarentee policy:

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote

For livestock which has died, the specimen must be returned within 48 hours along with a water sample for testing. A refund may not be given if your water quality tests poor. While we will make every effort to ensure the long term health of your purchase, we can not be responsible for losses due to aggressive tank mates, long periods in transit to your home, etc. Due to their sensitive nature and demanding requirements, we can not give refunds for small polyp stony corals.

99% of my SPS is captive bred but since they sometimes will melt for no reason we will not guarentee them and to be honest I don't think it has ever been an issue. Long transit periods being anything over an hour. No we don't ship livestock because of the stresses involved and because it's just too much of a hassle.

If you look at my Livestock Availability you will see what my instore labeling looks like.

For fish check out: Angelfish

for corals check out: LPS Corals

We do classify animals for beginner, intermediate, expert and surprisingly a good percentage of the time this works quite well with the aquarist self regulating their purchases to match their own perceived skill level. If you take a look at the label for Tubastrea I would say this is a coral that is quite difficult to keep if you aren't dedicated but I don't think it should be restricted from collection as long as the LFS does their job of prescreening the purchaser.

[SPC]

I hope you are right, but I am afraid things are not changing. The majority of the people I see do not want to do the research. You could go to their house, click on one of the reef boards for them, and they still wouldn't read it. I think that we who spend alot of our time on these boards tend to forget that the majority of people who set up tanks do not care enough to research beyond what the LFS tells them. Even when the good LFS gives them, what we would consider sound advice, how much do they actually remember? I never see anyone in my LFS asking questions who has a note pad. When I tell them, and actually write it down for them, the various reef links they can visit for great info maybe 1 in 20 actually look at them. I know this because these people come back to the LFS asking what type of bottled cure all they can buy because all their fish are dying. When I ask them if they researched the boards before they set the tank up they say "no, I haven't had the time yet."
The LFS I frequent sells on average of about 8 tanks to newbees each month. I asked the owner just the other day how many aquarium related books he had sold this year (not counting me), he said about 5, and that includes fresh and salt.
Until I started hanging out at my LFS (owner is a good friend) I never believed him when he told me this is the way the majority of aquarium owners act. I thought well, they must not know how to access the information. Its when I started trying to help them by pointing out good books right there in the store, and giving them the reef board info, that I started to realize the real problem, most people just don't care enough to do the research.
Steve

[JeremyR]

SPC,
Yeah, that's the case in general. We run our store pretty much like matt/tom at inland reefs.. we are very selective about what goes where.. ask everyone what their lights are, try to develop a relationship with them, and refuse sale of items such as SPS and clams to poorly lit tanks on a daily basis. Some people are good about it and appreciate the honesty, some get PO'd and go buy it somewhere else anyways.

[naesco]

Wish I had you guys in the neighbourhood.
It is not fair that the other LFS gets to fill up their tanks with gorgeous (read impossible to keep) fish and coral to sell to the public. That same store probably buys Phillipines fish because they are cheaper. No doubt a good wholesaler is faced with the same problem.

[esmithiii]

Amen Naesco. The most knowledgeable guy in the larger LFS in my area told me that "since LR did not have water actively flowing through it, it is not as effective as a wet-dry filter, and that my reef tank should definitely have one." When I mentioned this board he said I should avoid this place since most people didn't know what they were talking about, and that there "were some pretty strange ideas" on this board. Like DSBs, for example. He is the only one in the place that knows any scientific names of any of the livestock!

[naesco]

[img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]
It wasn't that long ago when I asked for live rock and got a real strange look from the LFS guy.
My tank is built as part of the wall so will likely stay when our home sells.
When I move and get a new system, I am going to leverage this board to the 9th. Tank lighting everything.

[ December 30, 2001: Message edited by: naesco ]</p>

[SPC]

VkeSue, what you say is true if retailers like us were in the majority. The problem is that we are the vast minority, and so therefore our buying power is not as important to most LFS. When most aquarium owners (I won't even call them hobbiest) or someone interested in starting up a tank walks up to the sale tank, what is the first fish they want? In my experience it is the Mandarin, Butterfly or the Seahorse. The LFS knows that by stocking these animals they can realize more sales, as you said "it takes money to stay in business". Do you really think that most LFS will stop carrying these animals because one person out of a thousand complains?
Steve

[ December 30, 2001: Message edited by: SPC ]</p>

[VkeSu]

I agree on the poor shipping...I did want a Fiji yellow leather.(Had one for 3 years, died in tank crash). It had grown huge in my tank. Went to order one from ffexpress, saw the warning. I REALLY wanted one. I spoke to the guy there for a while and really questioned him, I even said, if it was damaged, would it be 100% gone, or would I be able to pull it through? He said if the weather was warm, there is a good chance of it being better off, but it is cold at all...DO NOT TAKE THE RISK! I explained that the following week was cooling off, so I did not get it. I was impressed/surprised that he did help on that. It made me feel better at least about them.

[esmithiii]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote

If the mail order place is in California are they to be held responsible if someone in Maine or Alaska orders a fish in the dead of winter?

Pharmacies are responsible for whom the dispense prescriptions. Mail order firearms companies are responsible for not shipping certain rifles to NJ or CA, by the way.

[SPC]

Yes, I think the mail order company ought to be fully responsible for where they ship a live animal! If someone in Alaska orders a live fish in the dead of winter, then they just have to wait until spring to get their fish.
Steve

[Rover]

Just to jump in here....

A disclaimer on shipping policies (IMHO) is not an admission that something is impossible to keep, but rather it is a poor shipper. (You are talking about mail order companies I believe coorect?) They simply don't have time to check every address to see how far away it is or what the weather will be like when it arrives. There are some hardy fish that simply do not ship well. There are several fish that I deal with in my store that I buy that are not guaranteed. Once they have made the trip and are acclimated to my tanks I don't have a problem guarantying them to my customer. If the mail order place is in California are they to be held responsible if someone in Maine or Alaska orders a fish in the dead of winter? I would imagine that the people packing the boxes and the people labeling the boxes aren't neccessarily the same people.

Glenn