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by **Bill2** » January 16th, 2002, 11:51 am

check this out
http://www.ffexpress.com/fish/tank_raised.html

by **cjdevito** » January 16th, 2002, 12:01 pm

You just beat me to it, Bill. I was about to post the same thing.

Mary, we briefly discussed this before (not regarding this company) and your comments were that the fish were not, by any means, larval when collected. That flew in the face of what I heard from a couple of other sources, but I don't discount it.

However, now that another company is making the same claims, I'd like to nail down a definitive answer. Is this real, or is this marketing?

[ January 16, 2002: Message edited by: cjdevito ]

by **Chucker** » January 16th, 2002, 12:15 pm

As I posted in another thread, my big concern would be by-catch. I'd also have to wonder who is doing the IDs.

by **Bill2** » January 16th, 2002, 12:19 pm

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Chucker:
As I posted in another thread, my big concern would be by-catch.[/QUOTE

I wonder if there is any by catch. I think they use plankton nets in open ocean.(near island I would guess) Did it state in the article. It's too early to go back and look.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chucker:
 I'd also have to wonder who is doing the IDs.<hr></blockquote>

My guess would they just grow a bunch of fish until they start to grow into their final form and then seperate.

by **Bill2** » January 16th, 2002, 12:22 pm

Discussion on chat channel prompted my re-finding of this:
http://www.reefs.org/library/article/b_mankin.html

by **MaryHM** » January 16th, 2002, 4:29 pm

My comments mirror Jeremy's. I don't know anything about this operation, so I can't say one way or the other.

by **MandarinFish** » January 16th, 2002, 5:43 pm

Mary - could you help us investigate the legitimacy of these claims?

Any recommendation on how to check into it?

I've wondered about the claims too. If everything is as is claimed, tank-reared (if not captive bred) fish would seem the way to go.

There are massive mortality rates naturally, of course.

The smaller and younger the fish, the less impact it's loss will be on it's habitat.

by **Bill2** » January 16th, 2002, 5:44 pm

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by MaryHM:
My comments mirror Jeremy's. I don't know anything about this operation, so I can't say one way or the other.<hr></blockquote>

Hmm first time i've ever heard mary not have comment. I bet you were just busy [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]

by **Bill2** » January 16th, 2002, 5:52 pm

If the the statements are true I would like to sign up for the first morish idol that eats pellet food [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]

This would be a great step and I would pay double for a coralivoire I know will not eat coral. (well 80%) sure

by **MandarinFish** » January 16th, 2002, 10:48 pm

Moorish Idols look incredible.

I take it they're nigh-impossible to keep?

Again - any way to verify net catching and supposed tank raising procedures?

I REALLY like the sound of this as an eco-friendly option for choosing tank specimens.

by **Bill2** » January 16th, 2002, 11:34 pm

http://www.spc.org.nc/coastfish/News/lrf/6/05-Bell.htm

might help

by **MandarinFish** » January 17th, 2002, 12:01 am

Very informative Bill. Thank you.

I guess we have to trust wholesalers that claim the fish are tank-reared.

As eco-concious as I am, it seems a sustainable way to gather ornamental fish.

by **naesco** » January 17th, 2002, 12:29 am

Are the fry they are catching the one in a million that survive or are they just catching the ones?

by **JeremyR** » January 17th, 2002, 1:15 am

I don't have any info on this operation, but it was my understanding that the c-quest "larval raised" fish were actually .75" when captured and then grown out. I'm not sure that means it's bad, but I do believe it's false advertising.. and I wish we could get 3rd party confirmation about whether stuff like this is real or not.

by **JoshF** » January 17th, 2002, 2:51 pm

from reading the article, it sounds like there are two stages which incur high mortalities: the pelagic larval stage and the settlement stage when they return to the reefs. Apparently capture at the first stage is easy, but the larvae are too fragile to rear. At the second stage, they are subject to extreme predation from larger fish, are easily caught, and fairly easy to rear.

What I take from the article is that 95-99% of post-larval fish returning to the reef become food for reef organisms. They can successfully capture and rear a percentage of these fish as they come into the reef fairly easily using inexpensive equipment. They can then rear the post-larval fish for sale and for release into the wild. The former group is of course of direct interest to us as hobbyists.

The second group is also quite interesting, because in theory this method of harvest could actually INCREASE the fish populations over time. If 1000 post-larval fish return to a certain spot in the reef, normally only 10-50 will make it to relative maturity (95-99% mortality as mentioned in the article.) If 500 of these larvae are captured and grown out with a 100% survival rate (completely improbable, but bear with me) then 450 could be put into the aquarium trade, and 50 could be put back into the reef. Half of the original group was already on the reef so that gives you 5-25 wild reared plus the 50 grown out in captivity. That should definitely improve sustainability.

Of course there are other factors, such as an unknown survival rate of post larval captive raised fish, etc. The other big factor on the other side is that this looks like a potential boon for the hobby; an environmentally sensitive method of providing superior fish to the hobby while sustaining wild stocks. Very cool! [img]images/smiles/icon_cool.gif[/img]

Josh

by **MaryHM** » January 17th, 2002, 5:01 pm

I've exhausted my contacts and can't find out anything about this. I don't deal with anyone in that part of the world, so it's tough for me to get any information.

by **Kalkbreath** » January 17th, 2002, 8:05 pm

How bout we permit baby Seaturtles? Sea turtles have such a high mortality rate during the first year, that to my knowledge there has never been a photo taken of a five month old in the wild? Allow 10,000 to be taken a year for the trade,Sea turtles in a reef tank,COOL! and after five months or so, you release it back into the Ocean and then get another! A program like this would increase the survival rate {to adulthood }of sea turtles ten fold! But alas, Logic and math is not an Environmental Wacko fond of?
_________________
Volvo Cars

by **MandarinFish** » January 17th, 2002, 9:17 pm

Kalkbreath - wtf?!?! Your point is bizarre and convoluted, and you don't write in complete sentences, much less with proper grammar.

Mary - thank you for trying and giving your info on this practice. See, I'm not a totally bad guy. [img]images/smiles/icon_razz.gif[/img]

by **cjdevito** » January 17th, 2002, 11:56 pm

Yes, thanks for trying, Mary. It's appreciated.

by **tazdevil** » January 18th, 2002, 12:27 am

Jeremy, you posted: <blockquote>quote

I'm not sure that means it's bad, but I do believe it's false advertising

Which, should we remind FFE is illegal, and kinda frowned upon by the federal and most states law enforcement.

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