Reefs.org Forums

[Modo]

If this is true and you have some way of backing these claims up you can report false and deceptive advertising to the FTC.

Not only is the vendor/service provider in question liable for the deceptive ads so is the agency and website designers. This of course all comes down to proof.

It turns my stomach at some of the claims that are made in the aquarium/reef industry to make a buck on unsuspecting hobbyists. This is just one more hurdle that we as responsible hobbyist and industry people have to overcome.

Without saying, education is our main weapon.


The link below is the FTCs "Rules of the Road" for advertisers.
http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/buspubs/ruleroad.htm

[naesco]

We are not dealing with the purchase of something like shoes, the quality of which may have been misrepresented.
We are dealing with the health of critters.
I 100% blowing the whistle on unethical practice let alone fraudulent practice.
Even with equipment, an LFS who sells a new reefer a fluval 401 or whatever should be required to take it back or be shut down.

[Rover]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote

Even with equipment, an LFS who sells a new reefer a fluval 401 or whatever should be required to take it back or be shut down.

[img]images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img]

[Modo]

The misrepresentation of any goods in an ad is fraudulent and is subject to restitution, fines and my favorite...corrective advertising.

I know the word "goods" is a little cold but any tangible object you buy is a good.

The subject of return policies and bad business practices is a another subject. Thats not my bag, I work for an advertising agency. [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

[Reefan99]

So, if we all feel this strongly about misrepresentation and truth. let's do something about it. Although we can't come out and identify specific transgressors in this forum, we can and should spread the word amongst ourselves as to which companies are the worst offenders. It is not that difficult to figure this out. If a company is based far away from where it's animals are being shipped, the question arises as to who owns and operates that fulfillment facility. Those companies who actually DO oversee and manage their own holding and shipping facilities will fess up without much hesitation. These are the companies you want to use - the ones who actually pick, pack, and ship their own animals. Those who cannot prove that they have their own fulfillment facilities have NO direct control over what is being shipped under their label. These are the companies who have not invested in proper physical infrastructures, but usually put their bucks into what lures new customers in, ie. fancy and expensive marketing materials. Which one would you want your live aquarium animals to come from??? Spread the word.....

[Reefan99]

Fellow hobbyists. I have become very disillusioned of late with the level of truth being displayed by some of the online stores out there. I don't know if they think that we are all hillbillies out here, but it is high time that we all see the truth as it is. Without mentioning names PLEASE be aware of some of the following truths surrounding the OLS's:

1) Los Angeles is the largest hub for marine livestock in the world. A huge portion of all animals imported into the US goes through LA.

2) A lot of OLS's DO NOT ship, inspect, or control their own animals despite advertising that they do! These companies (mostly outside of LA) contract with wholesalers in LA to ship their animals. These OLS's have NOTHING to do with the animals they say they ship. They rely on the LA wholesaler to pick, pack, and ship. They rarely, if ever, even see the animals themselves, let alone select them with the TLC they advertise. Just because these OLS's advertise that they have their own facilities and experts in those facilities DOES NOT mean that they do.

3)All next day shipping is not equal. A lot of OLS's advertise crazy, cheap shipping rates to lure newbies and price shoppers in. I have ordered a LOT of marine animals and there is a huge difference between a shipment arriving in the afternoon and one that comes first thing in the morning. If you want to receive a live animal make sure that the OLS is shipping for the EARLY priority delivery. Their freight rates may be cheap enough to lure you in, but if you aren't getting priority morning delivery you will spend more in the end for dead or dying animals.

4) Many OLS's offer "expert advice". Don't just blindly follow this expert advice. make sure that the person dispensing this wisdom is an expert. Just because he/she advertises a degree doesn't mean they have real credentials in this hobby. The experts you want to listen to have published and have lectured widely within the hobby - listen to these!!

There is a lot of smoke out there. Some of us have been around long enough to know what is really going on and what to avoid. When you are dealing with an OLS ask pointed questions and see if they really do offer what they advertise. You will be very surprised!!!

[MickAv8r]

The problem you will run into is what results in a misrepresentation. Next Day Service is still Next Day Service regardless of whether or not it arrives in the morning or afternoon. Unless they specify AM delivery they aren't misrepresenting anything.

As far as care requirements? This is a HUGE can of worms because again you must prove they intentionally mislead a customer into believing they could care for Animal X. Yes there can be countless mounds of published papers talking about the difficulties of keeping Animal X, but if the OLS pulls out Bob's Reef Guide copyright 1986 and shows a published source saying that X is easy to keep then your proof just got much harder.

What you need to keep in mind, as frustrating as it is, while Reefs.org is the bleeding edge of the hobby and many things which are not only accepted but proven countless times by the members here, 95% of the hobby doesn't even know reefs.org exists and this includes MANY of the OLS's and Distributors out there. Most importers/distributors are woefully prepared to provide the proper IDENTIFICATION let alone proper care for the animals they sell.

If anything does this hobby in, it will be the ignorance on the distributor level.

[Reefan99]

Tom,

The deception I am referring to here is more basic. If you say you have your own facility in LA complete with a resident in-house expert (identified by name) who inspects each and every animal before it leaves, then you had better have those facilities in place. If you don't, and the OLS I am referrring to DOES NOT, then you are grossly misrepresenting yourself. Period. This is not a complicated issue. The OLS in question is basically BS'ing the public and apparently getting away with it!!!

[EmilyB]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr> Even with equipment, an LFS who sells a new reefer a fluval 401 or whatever should be required to take
it back or be shut down. <hr></blockquote>

Naesco....I don't get out much...but even I know three people running Fluvals on reefs (for a few years time and successfully.). I ran my 48g that way for over a year until I sold it.

I'm certainly not recommending it, for sure, it tended to accumulate crap IME - it's likely a lower end starting setup as most people "evolve" to full reef keeping, but to say "be shut down?"

[img]images/smiles/icon_confused.gif[/img]

[MickAv8r]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Reefan99:
<strong>The OLS in question is basically BS'ing the public and apparently getting away with it!!!</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yes that would be something completly different. If it is who I think you are talking about I can assure you that the warehouse is fully staffed with incompetent people. Private Message me to compare notes.

[MickAv8r]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by naesco:
<strong>So Tom what can be done about it.
No one whats these guys to do the hobby in.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

One of the biggest chains in the country buys from one of the biggest jokes as far as I'm concerned. As long as deals like that are in place there is little chance of anything happening. All I can say is education education education, as long as people are ignorant and willing to buy animals for the lowest price from the least educated sale staff backed by a management system that is incredibly ignorant and incompetent then it's a self perpetuating problem.

[naesco]

So Tom what can be done about it.
No one whats these guys to do the hobby in.
If the good part of the industry takes action to stop this including the possibility of getting government legistlation, we can put the bad guys out of business before they put us out of our hobby.
The time to do something is now before it is too late.

[sdcfish]

This is a very sensitive subject for sure. OLS's who are falsly advertising is just plain wrong...but it's business.

What really gets me is when you read an advertisement that makes the Industry look bad to make themselves look better. I have seen an advertisemt that says, "most fish are not even fed until it reaches the hobbyist's tank"! The same ad goes on to say that most fish are caught with drugs and will die! There were more false claims made, but I don't want to list them all.

I don't know many retailers who don't feed their fish, and I believe that most wholesalers feed their fish too. Basic rule of thumb for a hobbyiest is to see a fish eat before purchasing it. This has been the norm for more than 30 years. To me, these kinds of advertising "scheme's" could be very damaging to the hobby that is now and has been for a while, under scrutiny.

Business is one thing, but to slam the industry to make your own business look like it stand's apart from the rest of the industry is criminal and should not be supported.

I have emailed the magazine that publishes this ad and asked them to retract the ad. I would hope that anyone else would do the same and don't be silent! Let these companies know that they aren't going to be supported. I had been told that this ad had been running for a long time and I only wish I had noticed it earlier.

Point here is that no one should be fooled by false advertisements and for sure no one should support a company that falsly slam's the Industry that they are trying to make a living from.

The future of this Industy is revolutionizing. With the Marine Aquarium Council gaining support, the weaknesses of the Industry will hopefully be addressed and corrected. I see the Aquarium Industry being a huge part of the solution for environmental problems, that weren't caused by this Industry in the first place.

It's up to the hobbyists to demand healthy and environmentally friendly collected animals. The demand must come from the end user.

I look foreward to 20 years from now, looking back and being proud of the acheivements this Industry is capable of making.

[MILPIL2]

Nicely said Eric. Have no clue which add is being mentioned, but if they are going to state that all fish are drugged, and that no one is feeding them, then these are bold faced lies, that need to be adressed. JN [img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img]

[Mad Tart]

Ok so it's up to the end user.. can some people pm me with the names of OLS that are reputable and possible a list of ones I shouldnt touch with a 10' pole? Frankly I'm not highly impressed with my LFS so I'm being pushed to purchase online.. not what i would choose

Mad Tart

[dizzy]

It's great to see more people with Eric's knowledge of the industry posting to this forum. I was easily able to find the ad in FAMA that you were reefering too. (pun intended) Unfortunately it is not unusual to find people who try to build themselves up by tearing others down. I am personally getting tired of all the industry bashing that is going on. I find it hard to understand how an industry that is responsible for such a small part of the problem, would get such a large part of the blame. Where are our industry PR people and spin doctors when you need them?

The industry does have skeletons in the closet and hopefully we will get much better, but it is totally unrealistic for anyone to think we can go from poor with problems to near-perfect in one amazing leap. There is plenty of other stuff that needs reforming too, and the people who keep focusing negative attention on the industry they work in, may be shooting themselves (and the rest of us) in the ass.

I would also advise Mad Tart to look around a little further in the local area for a decent fish place before going to online stores. IMO shipping out is the perfect way to move stuff the walk-in traffic won't buy. The LFS built this hobby and if you fail to support them, the industry will retract and die, like a 6-month goniopora in a beginner's tank.

[Mad Tart]

I've been to every store in my area. 2 seems to have some knowledge of what they are doing but can't tell me if they get anything wild caught or tank raised. Seem to be less concerned with it than I am. Which I will try to request them to be more aware of that but I am one lowly customer and it would be difficult for me to detect if they lied to me just to make the sale. So looking for all the best options I can get on truly enviromental sources. :-}

[questionable]

"It's up to the hobbyists to demand healthy and environmentally friendly collected animals. The demand must come from the end user. "

I've just started, total newbie... for the hobbyists to demand anything, they must know that the issue exists. I researched up and down the internet this entire weekend on what I needed to do to start, I started with general searches and then specified them down to what fish to purchase, what they eat, filters to purchase etc.

I'm sorry, but only after I went to check out shops and their available stock did I become aware of how the fish were collected... It was through a PetSmart manager. He explained why they don't carry saltwater and I was blown away. I never found anything online regarding the actual collecting methods for the fish. I've been in the freshwater hobby since I can remember, I just never knew how saltwater fish were collected... it actually came quite naturally that they were raised in tanks just like all my other fish.

So I think that the advertising can't be that good... a bunch of people on one bulletin board doesn't help us that are new to the hobby. (often I skip bulletin board postings when I'm doing a general search since you have to read through so much "irrelevant" info to get to exactly what you want to know.)

I've never seen anything about this on CNBC, the Discovery channel, Animal planet etc... What would it take to create a movie and have someone like GreenPeace take over the advertising for this subject? Or send a the movie to Discovery? This is where the beginners start... TV, Friends, and then general online searches.

Do you know anyone who would purchase a can of Tuna that wasn't dolphin safe? How many millions of people had No Idea.... How did the "dolphin savers" save the Dolphins??? Can we follow them, learn from our history?

Thanks for the ear...
-C

[dizzy]

questionable,

If I were you I wouldn't place too much value on what the Petsmart manager told you. Petsmart is a huge profit driven chain store that is controlled by stockholders and they don't make business decisions based on morals or ethics. Their primary competitor is PetCo and they do sell salt fish so take in the manager's spin with a grain of salt. Both chains try to play the environmentalist trump card, but IMO both fall down.

Fish collecting does have its abuses, but it is not lonely in that regard. There are plenty of net-trained collectors out there and lots of healthy fish to be had, if you educate yourself. (learning where the fish originate is a good first step) Buy some good books on the subject. The industry ( especially LFS) has lots of intelligent hard working people, so don't sell it short. IMO a more logical reason that Petsmart doesn't sell saltfish is that they can't attract the competent staff required to make the venture profitable. Taking proper care of delicate livestock is a labor of love, and is not usually a feature of today's big box stores.

BTW the topic of destructive fishing was on Discovery type television back in the mid-80s and has been revisited in years since. Problems can be easy to point out and difficult to correct. Third World countries have many hungry mouths to feed.