Reefs.org Forums

[SPC]

Posted by Kalk:
I think more fish die before the hobbyists has a chance to kill them? I have little idea how many die in the crude holding vats the collector use on the islands ?

-I am not just talking about hobbyists killing them with my statement. It is the hobbiest who is willing to purchase animals that have a very poor track record in aquariums and that are in poor physical shape to begin with. If the hobbiest was more interested in the history of their purchase then the supplier would accommodate them, or go out of business.
Steve

[Bill2]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by SPC:
<strong>

-I am not just talking about hobbyists killing them with my statement. It is the hobbiest who is willing to purchase animals that have a very poor track record in aquariums and that are in poor physical shape to begin with. If the hobbiest was more interested in the history of their purchase then the supplier would accommodate them, or go out of business.
Steve</strong><hr></blockquote>

Great Point. But what does the retailer do?

[SPC]

Posted by Bill2:
Great Point. But what does the retailer do?

-The retailer demands from their supplier what their customer wants. The retailer can only sell what the customer will buy. If the customer insists he wants only X then the retailer had better not stock Y if he wants to stay in business.
Steve

[Chucker]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by SPC:
<strong>Posted by Bill2:
Great Point. But what does the retailer do?

-The retailer demands from their supplier what their customer wants. The retailer can only sell what the customer will buy. If the customer insists he wants only X then the retailer had better not stock Y if he wants to stay in business.
Steve</strong><hr></blockquote>


..... but sometimes the dealer gets Z even when he ordered A, B, and a little bit of Q. Box fillers have a reputation of being stuff that can't be kept alive in home aquaria, like dendros, gonis, and sun corals. The ones who packaged the box are partly to blame there, and also a bit on the collectors. The problem is two-fold... the collector in many cases probably just doesn't know any better, and the exporter still takes them in, and ships them out anyway.

[SPC]

Posted by Chucker:
..... but sometimes the dealer gets Z even when he ordered A, B, and a little bit of Q.

-Then the dealer should put preasure on their supplier not to send this to them again. If I own a company that orders X and am sent Y then I would find a supplier that only sends me X if that is what I ordered.
Steve

[SPC]

Eric Bornemans opinion,
http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=166c5fa29e6e4799835af0656246aa27&threadid=83875
Steve

[flameangel]

just some notes here--
I order from a very respectable wholesaler, 4 Midas blennies, receive 3 DOA Midas blennies and one totally unknown blenny !! Always pay extra for Fedex delivery which is the safest/quickest way to this area, box/heat pads etc in excellant condition-still had the DOA's and the ? blenny.
Who's fault here??

My wholesaler receives "fillers" of dyed corals after saying "absolutely NOT" to her supplier-I say "absolutely NOT" to her and yet end up with one !!! I don't blame her for trying to make a buck on it-but, I refused to sell it( and used it as an example as to what NOT to buy, to my customers) but it died-I am out the money paid- Who's fault??

I refuse to stock Blue-rings or Lion fish- do not want to be responsible for anyone getting hurt or killed- but hobbyists want them and think they can "just be careful". ( accidents can/will happen).

Also-the wholesalers who are environmentalists, do not have the control many hobbyists think they have, and the retailers have even less. We can not go direct to the divers and bring back each animal ourselves !!!

Then there is the hobbyist who wants the "cheapest price" for everything(and the rarest animal at that).
From what I read here on reefs.org- most wouldn't support those of us who do the best we can, because it does cost more.
Yet they are willing to buy an animal, sight unseen, from some internet company that I would NEVER buy from. (price was cheap and they got a deal) They do not understand that the PR man who answered the phone does not equate with the conditions in the background.

Is there any "out" here?? Breeding and propagation of as much as possible- keep the ethics and go broke trying to educate as many hobbyists as possible!!!

my apologies for the "rant"--
If the hobbyist would walk in the dealers shoes for a day- they would see things from a different perspective.

[Kalkbreath]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Chucker:
<strong>


..... The ones who packaged the box are partly to blame there, and also a bit on the collectors. The problem is twofold ... the collector in many cases probably just doesn't know any better, and the exporter still takes them in, and ships them out anyway.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Its the Reef which has these items in great supply, so the Reef is to blame, why we get what we do in the boxes. Gonnies, yellow ribbons, and dendros are some of the most abundant animals on the reef. The collectors collect what is out there, They dont choose to collect Moorish Idols over what we ask for. Its that When there is a school of Moorish idols swimming by and they have not seen a yellow tang in weeks.....they bag the Idols. Buy only asking for certain fish, the pressures on that fish become too great for the reefs to handle. By removing a wide variety of fish the impact is distributed without threatening any one species. Is not the health of the reef of greater importance then the issue of which fish are suitable for our pets?
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[flameangel]

Kalkbreath,,
In my opinion,
yes- the reef is of utmost importance.

But,
Do you feel that we have the right to collect Moorish Idols/Powder Blue tangs/butterflys for "pets",however plentiful they are, even knowing that 95% of them will suffer and die in our tanks??

I don't !!!!!

We KNOW they have very poor survival rates in captivity, especially in newbie tanks.
And that is where most of them end up !!!

[flameangel]

Bill2 ,,

In answer to your beginning question-
you left out "Airlines" and "ignorance" in your choices.
Both of which are weak links in the COC.
Actually imho, ignorance is the biggest culprit!!
At the start/ finish and too many places in between.

But, there are many complications all along the chain, because we are dealing with living creatures-be they human or animal.

[coralite]

C.R.E.A.M.
Supply is affected by demand from the end user.

[Kalkbreath]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by flameangel:
<strong>Kalkbreath,,
In my opinion,
yes- the reef is of utmost importance.

But,
Do you feel that we have the right to collect Moorish Idols/Powder Blue tangs/butterflys for "pets",however plentiful they are, even knowing that 95% of them will suffer and die in our tanks??

I don't !!!!!

We KNOW they have very poor survival rates in captivity, especially in newbie tanks.
And that is where most of them end up !!!</strong><hr></blockquote>

Im not sure the reef looks at it from your perspective, The REEFs' health DOES react to what fish you take, We as a hobby seem to want to take the most important fish to the reefs' health..ie herbivors(keep Algae down) and groupers (which cull out sick fish)and we want to protect and leave the coral eaters? We as a hobby need to look at it ONLY from the reefs viewpoint,its all that truely matters. Im not sure ANY one fish over another is more whithin our Rights to remove then another? If i steal something out of your home , does it some how matter if im going to take "GOOD" care of the things I stold from you?

[ May 08, 2002: Message edited by: Kalkbreath ]</p>
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[Mad Tart]

Although I would point to Shippers and Instant Gratification Hobbyists as the main problems that I can see.

As Mary has said multiple times "There is no easy answer."

Trying to peg any one part of this industry as being to blame is almost totally futile. Every part from collector to hobbyist has a responsibility whether it is their job or their joy. Every part of this industry seems to be failing at their responsibility as well <not to say noone is doing their best>

This industry is almost nothing compared to the massive amount of damage that is done by pollutants and other exploitations of the reefs. Anyone here ever been on a cruise ship? How do you feel about hundreds of feet of reef being torn to shreds just so a HUGE cruise ship can dock right on the island?

Its a sad and horrible thing but people on the whole are greedy and destructive to their own habitat. We are killing our home planet. Everyone here has their hearts in the right place so I know in part I am preaching to the choir. I have more faith in some of these hard to find animals living and propogating in artificial homes then in their natural habitat. Even if everyone gave up this hobby today out of respect for nature and desire to see the fish continue to live the reefs would be destroyed. At the very least <most> people in this hobby have a mild intrest to a strong passion to see these beautiful creatures live and thrive. The people who are killing the reefs outside of this hobby care nothing for what they are destroying..

I believe that a USL is wise but not in banning those creatures from tanks.. but restricting the amount imported and the price. There are several fish that we have learned how to care for by trial and error. The people who tried weren't first time hobbyists that didnt know diddly. But now it can be common knowledge for anyone who cares to have those fish in their aquarium. They are more likely to survive due to the intrest and research that the little guy put in to help this fish live and breed.

There is a middle ground and it can be reached but not by talking only by taking one step at a time.

Mad Tart