Reefs.org Forums

[dizzy]

The collector is definitely the weakest link. If the collector uses destructive fishing practices he can cause collateral damage to both habitat and non-target fishes. The rest of the chain can only kill the fish they purchase. Quite frequently the collector is the least educated member of the coc. The next weakest link is the beginning hobbyist who is often willing to learn marine husbandry through trial and error.

[Rover]

In my opinion [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] the weakest link is the wholesaler. They are the (main) connection between the collector and the end user and pretty much influence both sides. If the wholesaler didn't buy it, the collector won't collect it. And if the wholesaler didn't really push stuff to inexperienced shop owners (by putting goniopora and the like on special) they would be less likely to end up in the shop.

Glenn

[Bill2]

Another topic just to throw out.

In the Chain of custody (simple):
Collector
Exporter
Wholsaler
Retailer
End User

Who do you think is the weakest link and why?

[Kalkbreath]

"You are the weakest link!"
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[Bill2]

Rover,
What about when the exporters put those fill items to fill the boxes. I bet that's where some of the gonipora come in

[seamuskrat]

In my opinion the weakest link is actually a few of these areas.

For example:
The collector. These collectors are not collecting for the joy of it, they are collecting for income. They get pennies per fish. They need to feed themselves and thier families. Often collectors are locals of the region who used to go out and collect where they could take a small boat. This seems to be less frequent because of overfishing. So now they must spend time in remote locations for days. To finance this, the exporters and middlemen will give them advance loans which means they must now collect enough to pay off the loan AND make money for living. This tends to be bad for the animals as they will collect whatever they can and make the most they can with limited regard for conservation. So as long as these practices are forced upon the locals of the collection sites this is a weak link.

The middlemen of the exporters are a bad bunch, again, in my opinion. Often, they exploit the collectors. They pay pennies for a fish they will sell for many dollars. They also allow for the export and collection of many species that are rare, limited, etc.

The exporters run a business. Although they could do a better job with many aspects of thier operation, they pay for the animals and ship them off.

The wholesalers are another weak link. SOME do and are working to import animals that are collected safe and sanely as well as species that do better in captivity, yet those importers exist who will take anything to make a buck. That is bad for us all.

Last the consumer. Still I see all too many peopel in igonorance buy animals they are ill-equipped to care for. The animals dies and they do it over and over without learning a thing.

If we as a hobby were to fix a weak link, it would be the consumer link, as we can educate stores and consumers about how to care for animals, how to pick safe and sanely collected animals, support certification like MAC, and use the end dollar power of tghe consumer to dictate how we wish things to be run. As the end user, our dollar is the mighty tool to dictate how the other links behave. If there is no market for cyanide fish, or corlas that do not do well, then they will not import them.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Bill2:
<strong>Another topic just to throw out.

In the Chain of custody (simple):
Collector
Exporter
Wholsaler
Retailer
End User

Who do you think is the weakest link and why?</strong><hr></blockquote>

[Rover]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote

What about when the exporters put those fill items to fill the boxes. I bet that's where some of the gonipora come in

Maybe I don't understand how it works. Are you saying that the wholesalers don't know what in the boxes until they open them or do they purchase from lists as well?

[Kalkbreath]

The weakest link is by far is the airlines, they kill more fish ,make more money per fish then the collectors or exporters . The Airlines are responsible for Half the retail cost of a fish.{2/3rds of the cost of an exported fish} If the collecters out on the reef recieved that money instead,this would increase their cut by 50 or more times! In turn making that reef they are taking care of WORTH 50 times more..................,Several HUNRED boxes of Tonga animals were all taken off the plane two weeks ago during a connecting flight
because the plane was too heavy, these boxes we left to die because this was a different Island not Tonga?This is an all too common event.
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[JeremyR]

Holy Batcave Batman, J Lowrie Lives!

[Kalkbreath]

onepercent on fish is silly....corals maybe, but this would mean not sending any animal that might not make it .... the death and waste would still occur behind the collectors building in the dumpster? Have they talked about how this one percent thing would work with the food fish trade? I did not think so.....Funny at Eva Air cargo today there were twnty boxes or so of LIVE fish and Hundreds of boxes of frozen fish .....all from the same airport in Jakarta?
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[Kalkbreath]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Rover:
<strong>

Maybe I don't understand how it works. Are you saying that the wholesalers don't know what in the boxes until they open them or do they purchase from lists as well?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yes thats how it works....see the Airlines make you prebook, so then you must pay for the shipping even if your order is short...so the shippers fill the boxes with what they do have.....usually junk that is plentiful.Like morish idols and Gonnies.."sorry the yellow tangs, just aint that many out there any longer "But there are billions of Morish Idols and Butterfly fish!" If I have to pay for the bag of water{ usually more then the cost of the Animal,} might as well put something in the bag..I got Thirty stuped Hump back shrimp just today that I in NO way wanted, but It was better then thirty litle bags of just water?
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[Bill2]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Kalkbreath:
<strong>The weakest link is by far is the airlines, they kill more fish ,make more money per fish then the collectors or exporters . The Airlines are responsible for Half the retail cost of a fish.{2/3rds of the cost of an exported fish} If the collecters out on the reef recieved that money instead,this would increase their cut by 50 or more times! In turn making that reef they are taking care of WORTH 50 times more..................,Several HUNRED boxes of Tonga animals were all taken off the plane two weeks ago during a connecting flight
because the plane was too heavy, these boxes we left to die because this was a different Island not Tonga?This is an all too common event.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Maybe It's time to start paying for guarenteed movement. I know many airlines offer this although it tends to be quite expensvie in relation to the normal freight charges.

[Kalkbreath]

Yes if I charter the plane the animals would most likely benifit...{ whats the upcharge rate} I usually pay $4 /kilo
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[Kalkbreath]

Hey Bill what do you think the chances of a 1% rate on fish imports?
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[MaryHM]

Been out of town for 4 days, so I missed everything that's been going on...

Here's my answer:
There are problems along each step of the chain, but I think the 2 weakest links are the Collector and the Hobbyist. If the collectors would collect their animals properly, and then even more importantly handle them properly, mortalities would decrease significantly. If the hobbyist would bother to educate him/her self about their animals PRIOR to purchasing them, then that would solve a lot of the problems. Unfortunately, I don't see much incentive for either to change.

[Kalkbreath]

Mary ,what percentage do you think make it from the collectors net ,through tranport ,aclimation and finally reach the Hobbyists? And how bout the idea of 1%rate in the future?
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Colt Roberts

[SPC]

IMO the weakest link is the consumer (hobbiest). Supply and demand.
Steve

[Kalkbreath]

I think more fish die before the hobbyists has a chance to kill them? I have little idea how many die in the crude holding vats the collector use on the islands ?
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[Bill2]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Kalkbreath:
<strong>Hey Bill what do you think the chances of a 1% rate on fish imports?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Now that's funny [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]

[Bill2]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Kalkbreath:
<strong>I think more fish die before the hobbyists has a chance to kill them? I have little idea how many die in the crude holding vats the collector use on the islands ?</strong><hr></blockquote>

You'd be surprised. Most of the fish in the holding pens if they are in water fare pretty well from what i've seen.