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[davidian]

The big question is what design elements of these superior skimmers makes them so superior? What are some guidelines to follow when designing a DIY skimmer?

For example, why does this thing cost 2 grand?? It's just clear acrylic, some tubing, and a pump, just like all the rest. Hand made in Germany doesn't mean a lot to me if I can hand make the same thing right here in Ohio for 1/10 the cost. I would think it would be fairly easy to reverse engineer this thing. Not a lot to it. They say on this page that it's over-engineered. To me that just means overly complicated and more to go wrong. And of course, much more expensive if and when something does go wrong. Other than being "over engineered" does it have anything that any other skimmer doesn't or that one wouldn't be able to duplicate in a DIY skimmer? I just checked out their website--"Royal Exclusive"--and I have never heard more BS in my life. The name tells you what they're about.--Trying to seem superior. Their products (and their whole company) are designed more to SEEM superior than to actually BE superior, it seems to me.

"Innovative proprietary product from Royal: injection pan, with conical counter bored holes for clear turbulence reduction." = PIECE OF PLASTIC WITH HOLES DRILLED IN IT. You drill holes, then you take a counter sinking bit and make them conical. Not difficult, complicated, or innovative. Just a gimmick. Like everything else on the site.

http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/store/...n-skimmer.html

And what method is used to adjust the water level in these skimmers? I have yet to find an explanation for this.

[Ben]

a few inches wide around the perimeter where most of the salt creep takes place

Sounds like what people call Euro-Bracing. This is done on many large tanks instead if center supports beams.

And what method is used to adjust the water level in these skimmers? I have yet to find an explanation for this.

They use a wedge pipe with a 45° cut at the bottom, you rotate it to adjust the bubble break point simple and very effective.

The big question is what design elements of these superior skimmers makes them so superior?

Mainly the red dragon pump is a beast. Really the pump is the heart of all skimmers (venturi/neddle/mesh wheel skimmer) and the best designed skimmer with a lousy pump is useless. The fact is, bubble kings may be way overpriced but they are awesome, and I think the large majority of the cost of these is the pumps. They are very well designed and work extremely well. The pumps are silent, and pull more air than any other pump I have ever used. I never lost sleep over that purchase, while many of the other skimmers I had used in the past, even though cheaper where not worth a dime.

Just a gimmick.

Bubble plates are not gimmicks though, they do work. They reduce turbulence and allow for a more stable foam head. You are correct they are easy to make, in Mojo's bubble king clone thread he made a very nice one.

Their products (and their whole company) are designed more to SEEM superior than to actually BE superior, it seems to me.

It is easy to make this opinion when you have never used their products. Ask around on the net what people that had bubble king skimmer think of them and you'll find they get a lot of love, and for a good reason..they work. I sold mine very fast after breaking down my large tank and recouped a large part of the original cost.

Ben, I'm glad you went to all the trouble to list all those skimmers, but that information is meaningless to me.

The point was not to go look at all those skimmers, just that I have had a LOT of first had experience with many different skimmer models. I don't talk from only using one or two in the past.

I've not even bothered looking at production model skimmers.

You should, especially if you plan to make one. It is wise to understand what most company's now a days are offering and what works well, they have done research and come up with some good designs. Also you can look at the different models and get an idea of what the best aspects of each are and use them in your design. There are many skimmer on the market, they work very well with out being 4' tall. They get more contact time by having a wider body, not a narrow tall one.

What ever you build I am looking forward to seeing how it turns out.

[davidian]

I haven't bothered looking at commercials skimmers online because it just can't compare to actually seeing the thing in person. I would love to take every one out of the box and look at them. And I wasn't calling a bubble plate a gimmick. The fact that they talk it up like it's some piece of high technology is the gimmick. It's just a piece of plastic with holes in it like a dozen other manufacturers and DIYers have been using for years. And they may work GREAT. But I guarantee they could charge less than half what they do and still make a healthy profit. And my tank with hood is about 6' tall, so it doesn't matter to me if a skimmer is 6" or 5' tall, as long as it does the job. So if I can build a tall one that does the same thing for 1/10 the price, that's a no-brainer. Maybe it will be tall. So what? I saved $1800. And it'll even have those angled counter-drilled holes in the bubble plate.--Cost: $0.

I am going to a fish store I used to frequent when I lived in Columbus (2 hours away now) on Sunday and I will be checking out each of their skimmers up close and personal. And I will do my own R&D with cheaper white PVC before building the final product. I will definitely take your advice and invest in a quality pump though regardless.

I think the large majority of the cost of these is the pumps.

Seriously? There is absolutely no reason a pump that size should cost $1000. That's just greed, plain and simple. What I don't think companies like this realize is that they'd sell more and make more money if they're just charge a more reasonable price. Even if I had the money I wouldn't spend it on their products, just on principle.

I have had a LOT of first had experience with many different skimmer models.

I appreciate that, and all the feedback. That's why we're having this discussion.

The cover I was talking about wouldn't be any kind of a brace. It would just block splashing and spray and jumpers. It would just sit on the top and could be removed.

What ever you build I am looking forward to seeing how it turns out.

Me, too!! It'll be awhile though, I think. The next time I post though, I'll have looked over some skimmers in person, so I'll likely have a few more questions for you (and anyone else who feels like chiming in). Thanks again.

[davidian]

After checking out a wide variety of skimmers up close and personal, taking them apart, and poring over every detail, I can now say with every confidence that I can build a skimmer FAR better than the $600 jobbies for less than $200. I know this for a fact. They are all the same. There's nothing special about any of them. They're all absurdly simple and easily duplicated. The difference with mine is that it won't have a brittle plastic body and brittle fittings with proprietary thread sizes that can only be replaced by sending away and paying through the nose. It will be nice, thick, durable acrylic and PVC. You'll be able to throw it off the roof, and it will only sustain light cosmetic damage at the worst. Some of the ones I looked at today, I could see where you could very easily end up with your very own Niagara Falls by accidentally bumping into them with something. The red dragon can Super Mario Brothers as far as I'm concerned. Wouldn't spend the money on one of those if I was printing it myself. I now have NO concerns about the skimmer. Easy-peasy, friggin... breezy. Just need to decide on exact dimensions and draw up a bill of materials.

[davidian]

Something else I figured out while visiting some local fish stores... I need to learn a LOT about coral. I see pictures of people's tanks online, and they're all full of beautiful, colorful corals. Everything at 5 local stores I visited pretty much looked about the color of a corpse, some with little bits of green or orange highlighter ink splashed on them, glowing slighly under the actinic lights. Where do you get these colorful corals? The bright greens and blues and reds and purples and oranges I see people proudly posting pictures of? Do you have to go diving and harvest them yourself? Black market? Or are they only obtained for very high prices in coastal areas? Or do the stores I've been going to just suck? Where is a good place to get started learning about coral? I'd like to have at least some basic knowledge before attempting to keep any. Tips?

[Ben]

What type of corals do you plan to keep?

If you are planning a soft coral tank, then a lot of the soft corals happens to be in the brown shades. Although there are plenty of exceptions being Zoas/Palys, some gorgonians, some leathers have green polyps or even green tissue on top, some like green star polyps or caluvaria can be colorful, mushrooms either discosomas-rhodactis-ricodea, green sinularias, and I am sure there are a few I am missing. One of my favorite soft corals though is the common usually brownish colt coral.

The advantage to a soft coral tank is the motion! The colt swaying in the current, the xenia pulsing, the motion really makes these tank come alive.

If you mix in some LPS then you can really get some of the more amazing colors. Acans, micros, scolys, Wellso's, fungia, favias, blastos, and of course the challices, there are just a ton of color to choose from. The crazy challice collectors are out there with tanks nearly dominated by these corals. What you won't find here is a lot of movement. They grow, but don't move much.

If you plan an SPS tank, which really require the best water quality and most stable water parameters you can also go into a ton of colors. The bright greens, purples, blues, really are common here. There are a few reds, oranges, yellows, also available out there with SPS so you really can get a wide range of color. On top of that for me at least a big draw to SPS is the different growth forms, the plating, encrusting sure, but there are so many amazing forms they take as they grow. With proper planning a nice SPS reef is hard to beat. Color will only be there if the tank has the right paramaters though, and no reef tank is easier to wipe out then an SPS reef tank. They can all die in a heartbeat, where the soft corals can be so much more forgiving.

In fact the soft corals often grow faster in a slightly higher nutrient tank IME, where the SPS would stop growing and in many cases STN will set in if the tank is not very stable.

If your local fish stores are not stocking the best corals, which very well might be the case then you may be stuck buying online.

I have found some of the best deals to be from buying frags from other reefers. I have also used many online retailers for corals,

cherrycorals.com
austinaquafarms.com
liveaquaria.com
fragglereef.com
worldwidecorals.com
atlantisaquarium.net

These are all ones I have used, and liked the corals I got. Many of those sell 'collector' corals though, which seem to bring prices high, but that's another topic.

Like I said though check out what other reefers have for sale, RDO does not have a very active selling forum. Since I see ads for R2R on the RDO home page I'll assume they do not mind the link, but R2R is a good place to look when you are ready for some corals. http://www.reef2reef.com/forums/selling ... livestock/

When the weather is right, spring and fall, many sellers can offer USPS priority on soft corals, so the shipping is cheap. I just got some Zoas and a green sinularia that way a few months back.

[davidian]

I don't really care about how rare something is. And an unreasonably high price is a huge deterrent for me. So there probably won't be a collection of the rare and exotic in my tank. My main concern is, does it look good? I want as much color in my tank as possible. And a variety of forms. Like you said, the different forms are very interesting and important to me. However, if all you have is a tank full of interesting forms that are all pale brown I say why bother? The stores I went to, by the way, are Phishy Business ("Central Ohio's Largest Salt Water Store") and Aquarium Adventure (40 times the size of Phishy Business) in Columbus, Ohio, and Just About Fish in Cincinnati. Just About Fish is the place that sold me the leaky tank claiming it had just been professionally resealed and definitely wouldn't leak (cash & carry--all sales final). Aquarium Adventure employs several experienced marine aquarists and a marine biologist who are supposed to know everything there is to know about anything to do with the hobby. My roommate and I got bad advice from them a dozen times. The main lesson I've learned from all the reading I've been doing online is not to believe a single word anyone says at an LFS. They want to sell you something, and that's all they care about. Bless the web community.

I ordered some RTV108 for the resealing job. I'll post pictures and updates once it shows up.

[Ben]

I don't really care about how rare something is. And an unreasonably high price is a huge deterrent for me.

Unfortunately, the way the hobby has gone these days many company's cherry pick the nicer pieces that come in bulk shipments and label them LE, usually chopping them for frags. Some of the established LE pieces though do have some advantages, that both they are established hardy aquarium raised frags, and you know what color they will stay over time in your tank.

Phishy business I have never heard of, but have seen them get some nice pieces on their site. They also seem to have a good web rep.

RTV108

I made no comment about this since I am not sure of it's make up. My only concern would be if it contained any chemicals it might leech.

[davidian]

I've read that RTV108 is stronger bonding and, rumor has it, that's what the aquarium manufacturers use.

[davidian]

Also still looking for feedback on the red items here:
http://davidian.x10.mx/reef.html

[davidian]

No help on the heaters, return pumps, skimmer pump, or overflow dimensions? Keep the feedback coming, guys.