Reefs.org Forums

[davidian]

I have finally started building my dream tank and am looking for feedback. Please check out what I have so far here:

http://davidian.x10.mx/

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

[davidian]

Posted an update with pictures.

http://davidian.x10.mx/

[_Andy]

Good luck and keep us posted.

[davidian]

Leak test failed. Any insight into this issue would be really helpful, as I've never had to repair a leaky aquarium before.

http://davidian.x10.mx/

[davidian]

Posted another update. Somebody help me out here.

http://davidian.x10.mx

[Ben]

If I was you I would just use something like a 40 breeder for a sump, should be plenty big enough.

[davidian]

Like I said, that's not nearly the volume I am looking for. The sump won't be full so any water that drains back in a power failure won't overflow it, so that would give me significantly less than 40 gallons with a DSB in the sump.--Closer to a quarter of my DT water volume than half. If anything, I'd like to be on the high side of that 50%. The plan is to build a setup that won't need upgrades. If I have the space for an 80-gallon sump, I want to take advantage of that. I'm leaning toward just building one. The only question now (unless someone comes forward with a custom-built tank just the right size on the cheap) is what material(s) to use. Quarter-inch Plexiglas would make me nervous, and half-inch is ridiculously expensive. Although I really like the idea of the material being welded together rather than using adhesive caulk to fill the seams (as in my leaky 150-gallon DT). Has anyone built a leak-free non-display tank for a reasonable amount of money? If so, what was used?

[_Andy]

I've used Rubbermaid plastic bins before - the larger ones tend to bulge with a lot of water so I made a simple frame out of ripped 2X4's to keep the sides from moving. I'm not sure if there is a risk of anything leaching out of the plastic but I never noticed any ill effects.

[davidian]

Thanks, Andy. I do want to avoid spending any money unnecessarily (like on a brand new tank only to be hidden from view). However, I also want to do things right the first time. I'm all for DIY, but I don't want to jury-rig or half-ass anything. (Not to say that there's anything inherently wrong with using a plastic tub. Whatever works.) It's just that I want this setup to remain for years without having to be upgraded or re-done. I want a solid sump that will last and with which there will be no question as to whether it might be leaking deadly chemicals into my reef. I'm sure you can appreciate that.

On another note, what do you have to do to get people to look at your post and provide a little more feedback? I'm on 4 major reef-keeping forums, and the responses are very few so far. I have a build thread here: topic143284.html No one has touched it. I have several points on my PLANS page http://davidian.x10.mx that I'd love to get a dialogue going on. I even put them in red! Namely, overflow dimensions, pump models, flow rates, pipe diameters, heater models, and oxygenation. Speaking of, is there a relatively inexpensive way to measure the oxygen in the water? And has anyone used these bubble disks? http://aquaticeco.com/subcategories/399 ... k-Diffuser Thoughts? Where is the best stage in your circulation to oxygenate the water? Will the venturi pump on the skimmer contribute to oxygenation? How much additional oxygenation is required if your sump is covered?

Oh, and I've still yet to receive any feedback on that pesky problem of a DT that doesn't hold water!!

[davidian]

From the picture it looks like these bubble disks are a force to be reckoned with as far as bubble output. I know you can't always trust the picture, so I was just wondering if these would be good for use in a DIY skimmer, and if so, if they require regular cleaning and how often.--Basically how they would stack up against a pump with a venturi.

[Ben]

Like I said, that's not nearly the volume I am looking for. The sump won't be full so any water that drains back in a power failure won't overflow it, so that would give me significantly less than 40 gallons with a DSB in the sump.--Closer to a quarter of my DT water volume than half.

Guess I missed you were putting a DSB in the sump. I suggested a 40 breeder as a sump, as that's is what I used very successfully for my 160 gal display. I do not really like the idea of a DSB in a sump but what ever works for you. When I think sump, I want it for just my skimmer, reactors, return pump, heaters, chiller feed, etc. If I was doing a remote DSB or fuge, I would want it completely detachable from the main system, with out taking my other components off line. JMO

Oh, and I've still yet to receive any feedback on that pesky problem of a DT that doesn't hold water!!

What feed back do you need? How old was the tank? How long was it sitting dry unused? If I got a used/old tank that leaked I would strip all the silicon off and re-do the whole tank. In reality I might just replace the tank to not deal with the hassle. I would be concerned with just scraping the silicon on the inside edges, and re gluing it only to have the tank fail a year or two down the line. If it was me, and I was intent on using this tank I would strip the glass apart, clean it, and re-silicon it properly so I was not as concerned with premature failure.

I'm leaning toward just building one. The only question now (unless someone comes forward with a custom-built tank just the right size on the cheap) is what material(s) to use. Quarter-inch Plexiglas would make me nervous, and half-inch is ridiculously expensive.

You are right 1/2" acrylic sheeting can get expensive. There are some cheaper tank manufacturers out there, namely glass cages, but their record leaves much to be desired. I made the sump I used on my 58, from 1/4" acrylic, but it was not an 80 gal sump as you want to have.

Speaking of, is there a relatively inexpensive way to measure the oxygen in the water? And has anyone used these bubble disks? http://aquaticeco.com/subcategories/399 ... k-Diffuser Thoughts? Where is the best stage in your circulation to oxygenate the water? Will the venturi pump on the skimmer contribute to oxygenation? How much additional oxygenation is required if your sump is covered?

I have never needed to test O2 levels in my reef aquariums, and I do not see a reason to when the aquarium is properly set up. This is from AA: "Minimum Dissolved Oxygen (DO) concentration of aquarium water is generally considered to be about 2 milligrams per liter (mg/l). This is not difficult to obtain as DO concentrations of ~4 mg/l have been observed in aquaria filtered only by sub-sand filters. Those aquaria using protein skimmers usually have concentrations around saturation (6-7 mg/l, depending upon water temperature, barometric pressure, altitude, salinity, etc.). Those systems using algal scrubbers (or contain much algae and/or symbiotic invertebrates) can become supersaturated with DO."

Why cover the sump?

[Ben]

From the picture it looks like these bubble disks are a force to be reckoned with as far as bubble output. I know you can't always trust the picture, so I was just wondering if these would be good for use in a DIY skimmer, and if so, if they require regular cleaning and how often.--Basically how they would stack up against a pump with a venturi.

From the many skimmers I have used, my best results have come from needle wheel or mesh wheel pumps. Years ago I used wooden air stones for some skimmers, but have never seen a disk diffuser work for a protein skimmer. If my plan was to DIY a skimmer, I would buy a pump like the sicce with a mesh wheel http://www.swcskimmers.com/Sicce-2500-Pump.htm and build the rest from acrylic tubing.

[_Andy]

What Ben said plus many people are just winding up from summer break and soon will be back indoors - the traffic will pick up a bit.

Sometimes it helps to Officer Friday it - "just the facts mam/sir" - clear, concise, questions.

slow down and enjoy building your system and don't fret so much about getting it perfect - perfection doesn't exist in this hobby - new information and new tech are a couple of the fun things - so your system will likely be changing anyway.

[davidian]

Just curious about the bubble disk. Wasn't sure if/how it differed from regular airstones and had never seen/heard anything about them. Not trying to get the setup perfect; I just want to eliminate any foreseeable need for major changes once I begin stocking it. As far as a DSB goes, everything I've read from experts suggests that a properly inhabited DSB in a fuge is probably the best addition you can make to a reef tank. I haven't heard any compelling argument against it.

The tank has a manufacture date of 2005, and the guy at my LFS "told" me it had recently been professionally resealed. I had considered going ahead and removing the bottom and resealing it. The type of feedback I was looking for was "I've done this before. Make sure you.... (insert useful tidbit here)." For instance if you've tried to remove silicone from ANYTHING before, you know it doesn't go quietly. Aside from the obvious razor blade, is there any chemical or anything that can be used to THOROUGHLY remove all silicone from the bottom piece of glass once it's off? Would using something like acetone, for instance, to clean the joint first allow for a more solid/permanent bond? Should things like that be avoided due to potential risk to livestock down the road? Is there any evidence/experience out there to tell me the best way to do it..? Or is it pretty much just squirt and hope?--If so I may unload the tank and buy a brand new one. I thought I was getting a deal with the whole "professionally resealed" line. Oh, and I have no clue how long it was sitting empty. I don't know if I can believe anything the guy at the store says now either.

As far as your suggestion goes about glasscages.com, I'm pretty sure a guy could build himself about 3 of any of their tanks for the price they want for the tank + shipping. Besides, shipping + heavy + fragile... I'll try my luck with craigslist or a more reputable local retailer long before I go that route. Remember, I'm pro-DIY and anti-parting-with-my-money-unnecessarily. I was thinking maybe plywood with a thin plexiglas liner? Has anyone had success with something like this?

Andy, I'm not in a hurry to get it done. I fully intend to take a year or more before I begin stocking. But I do want to get my plan together ASAP so I can start fabricating. Any decisions/revisions, I want to get out of the way now while I'm still in the planning stage. Don't want to spend a few hundred dollars fabricating and then have my mind changed. I'm the type of person who wants as thorough an understanding as possible before jumping into anything. I didn't have the understanding I needed the last time I foolishly tried my hand at marine aquaria, and the results were disastrous. I want to cover all my bases. And then cover them again.

Oh, and the reason to cover the sump: The last 2 marine tanks I kept, I seemed to lose POUNDS of salt a day via salt creep. It was a lot of work just keeping the salt cleaned up and salinity adjusted. The less water splashes out, the less salt I lose. That's why I was thinking covers, which in turn was the reason I was concerned about oxygen levels. With less surface area exposed to fresh air, I would want to make sure there is plenty of oxygen. Didn't know if I should be concerned or not. That's why I asked. The covers would also cut down on evaporation, or at least that's the idea behind them. I stated this on my PLANS page.

As far as your short-and-concise suggestion, every post I've seen where someone doesn't give a lot of detail, someone asks for more detail. I figure it's better to include as much detail as possible to start with. If you don't want to take the time to read it, I'll gladly take advice from someone who does instead.

Thank you both so much for your feedback. I'm excited to finally have some dialogue going about this rather than just passively reading article after article and thread after thread. Keep it coming.

[Ben]

As far as a DSB goes, everything I've read from experts suggests that a properly inhabited DSB in a fuge is probably the best addition you can make to a reef tank. I haven't heard any compelling argument against it.

One of the best pieces of advice I can give is, there are many ways to DIR in regards to reef aquarium set up. No one way is better then another as long as you understand the limitations of the system you choose. The end result is the same, some I have found easier then others.

What your goal of a DSB or fuge, or both? If you have a proper sand bed in your tank, de-nitrification can happen in a shallow bed. One of 1-2" of depth IME is more then enough to take care of nitrates. If you plan on a bare bottom tank, then using a remote sand bed is fine to help with nitrates but IME, it is better left to its own container then using the sump. Sounds from your last reply you are thinking of both a DSB and fuge, you could do this in a separate tank and have that flow back into the sump.

My main argument about a DSB is I have never had one not collect detritus, years go by and it builds up to a point where it leaches and algae starts growing. I have read many of Ron shimek's views on how to prevent this but simply do not buy it. I have just as much success eliminating nitrates with an in-tank sand bed that I clean small sections of every now and again.

I have also had much success, with bare bottom systems, with high flow and good skimming. Along with proper water changes, never had nitrate problems in those systems either.

I have also had success with prodibio run tans, and zeo run tanks. Both though can get more expensive to run, yet did very well for me. Prodibio was the easier to use of the two systems, for me at least.

As far as fuges go there can be some advantages, like if you are using it as a tank to let pods breed that will later flow back to the tank. I though personally do not use them. Macros in general can go sexual. Chaetomorpha will not, making it in my book the best algae to use in a fuge. It can be a way to use up nutrients, that would otherwise go to growing nuisance algae in a tank. I prefer though, instead of diverting those nutrients to another part of the system, just to eliminate them all together, using other methods.

I do not want to steer you away from any method you choose to utilize.

Remember, I'm pro-DIY and anti-parting-with-my-money-unnecessarily.

I do not like to part with my money either. There are definitely ways to DIY and save money in this hobby, as long as you are handy. I have seem some skimmer that were DIY that were excellent like Mojo's. Yet I have seen a lot of very poor designs that people wasted money on a DIY version, only to spend the money to buy a proper one later.

As far as your suggestion goes about glasscages.com

Like I said they have a very dismal track record and shouldnt be trusted. But they are the cheapest I have seen.

The last 2 marine tanks I kept, I seemed to lose POUNDS of salt a day via salt creep.

I run both my DT and sump with no cover and have very little salt creep, yet very high flow tanks. My salinity levels hardly every change, and with water changes no adjustments to salinity is needed. Maybe it was the way your set up was last time, but there should not be an issue with this.

[davidian]

I was going to put a DSB/fuge chamber in my sump for the purpose of denitrification and growing pods and cleaners, and hopefully some of the pods will make it back to the DT. I'll probably have some chaeto but in a separate chamber.--I mean... why not? Can't hurt. And it's cheap enough. I've heard the pods can have a tendency to abandon the DSB and take to living in the chaeto which can cause the bed not to get turned as thoroughly.--Hence the separation from the fuge. I don't buy that a shallow sand bed will do the same work as a DSB because there isn't that anoxic layer to harbor anaerobic bacteria. And like I said, I've read lots supporting the DSB from people who have used them with shining success. I've also read a lot from people who have used them and didn't have good results, but in each of those cases it seems like it was more operator error.--DSB in DT where the pod population couldn't be sustained, et cetera. I do plan on a shallow sand bed in my DT, mainly for looks. Bare bottom just looks wrong to me. A reef tank with a natural substrate feels like a little piece of the ocean. A BB tank just feels like it's missing something. Feels more like something out of a laboratory. Oh, and I want to make my sump as large as possible for the added temperature and chemistry stability.--About 80 gallons is my aim. So why not stick the fuge in there? Better than 80 gallons of just clean water from the skimmer or 80 gallons of bio balls. Right?

I have seen a lot of very poor designs that people wasted money on a DIY version, only to spend the money to buy a proper one later.

This is why I'm taking the time to try to get all the feedback I can and try to work out as many kinks now, during the planning stages, as possible. And as far as skimmer design, I want to keep it simple. I've read the more height you have in the water column, the better, and counter current is more efficient. So that's what I plan on building.--A simple, 48" counter-current skimmer using a venturi. Not much to go wrong there. Or so it would seem to me. If I'm missing something, please fill me in.

As far as the covers, partially about salt creep, as I said, but also partially about minimizing evaporation. And I forgot to mention, suicide prevention! I've had more than my fair share (as I'm sure most reefers probably have) of jumpers. I'm not interested in having that happen again if I can help it.

And again, this is why I'm posting this stuff.--I want your opinion. I may shoot back with my reasoning and seem argumentative, but I am taking your opinions into consideration and value the feedback. Thanks again.

[Ben]

I don't buy that a shallow sand bed will do the same work as a DSB because there isn't that anoxic layer to harbor anaerobic bacteria. And like I said, I've read lots supporting the DSB from people who have used them with shining success.

This use to get posted by Unarce here but here it is:

If you were to set up a reef tank with high current, than there would be a lot of bare areas if you had a SB less than an inch high. 2-3 inches is the absolute best way to go. It would be incorrect to claim that a sand bed provides 'more capacity to nitrify and denitrify' simply because it's deeper.

"As much as 70 to 90 percent of the overall denitrification was located in the uppermost centimeter. The remainder was found at 1-3 cm depth"

-T.K. Anderson 1984 "Diurnal Variations of Nitrogen Cycling in Coastal, Marine Sediments."

"anaerobic habitat can be as small as 1mm, that aerobic and anaerobic bacteria essentially coexist, and that as little as 0.08mm distance is sufficient for nitrification and denitrification to take place simultaneously."

-Ecology and Evolution in Anoxic Worlds. Oxford University Press, Fenchel, T. and B.J. Finlay. 1995.

The misunderstanding is that areas with low levels of oxygen are a must for denitrification. Since we now know that aerobic and anaerobic bacteria exist together in the upper portion of the SB, than the heavy oxygen levels of our tanks would not be a factor. It's unlikely that denitrification will occur in the deep areas of a DSB, especially if nitrates never reach it in the first place.

I'd also like to point out that a deeper sand bed doesn't necesarily equate to more biodiversity of life. A shallow sand bed of numerous grain-size will create a number of different environments housing more life than a DSB.

Another misconception is that the smaller the grain-size, the more surface area there is for bacteria. This would certainly hold true if we assumed that every grain was a perfectly round sphere. But, take into account the rough edges, crevices, and porosity of larger grains, then it becomes quite comparable.

Like many, I like the pleasing aesthetics of fine sand (which makes up most of my shallow sand bed). But, having multi-grains with the larger pieces turning into miniature live rock themselves has certainly added to the sand bed's functionality as well as its appearance.

[Ben]

As far as the covers, partially about salt creep, as I said, but also partially about minimizing evaporation. And I forgot to mention, suicide prevention! I've had more than my fair share (as I'm sure most reefers probably have) of jumpers. I'm not interested in having that happen again if I can help it.

I have always preferred open top to my tanks, although I have had my share of suicides. There are ways to prevent this with out covers though. Mesh tops for instance, still let heat out, don't block light, and prevent jumpers. I personally do not like cleaning glass tops, and if they are not regularly cleaned, expect a large loss in PAR. Also in summer months an aquarium that is not covered stays cooler IME. Generally people have been using 1/4 netting like this:

http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/store/cle ... 7-x-3.html

They also have how to instructions, on how to make the top.

Otherwise you can use a higher canopy with either netting on the back or a solid back but open slots on top to allow venting. This is the route Tom went and you can see his lid on the first page of his build thread here: topic136894.html

[Ben]

I've read the more height you have in the water column, the better, and counter current is more efficient. So that's what I plan on building.--A simple, 48" counter-current skimmer using a venturi.

Many years ago I saw these type of skimmers more often. The hobby has moved away from these type of skimmer for a reason. I even owned a large 5' monster CC skimmer at one point, it was never nearly as effective as the simple needle wheel skimmers I used in more recent years. FWIW, I have used a wide range of skimmer: Euro-reef (3 different models), Precision Marine Bullet 3 , Aqua-C (remora, remora pro, EV240, ev240), Reef Octopus (XP1000S, BH100), Aqua Medic Turbofloter 1000 when they used to come with AquaBee pumps, ATI Bubblemaster 200, BubbleKing Gen 2 mini 200, ASM (g2, g3), Lee's CC skimmers lol, Seaclone another lol, CPR backpak2, RedSea (prism, berlin classic), Corallife hang on, along with other crappy skimmers, many DIY skimmers, and some others I am sure I can not remember. No wonder I am broke..."a fool and his money" lol. Point is I have seen a lot of skimmer, and used many different designs. This is over 16+ years in reef aquarium keeping.The best results are the ones that were needle wheel skimmer that used quality pumps like the Euro-reefs, and bubbleking. The bubbleking has less reaction area then the euroreef CS8-3 yet running side by side it shut the Euro-reef down for the most part. Why? It had a better pump, a bubble plate that reduced turbulence in the chamber creating a more stable foam head, and was easier to fine tune the bubble break point so it ran more stable over periods of time.

If I was you and planning a DIY skimmer, I would look more to a shorter wider body, forget the CC design and work on making a clone of a needle wheel skimmer, using an askoll or sicce pump. If you have time look at some of Mojo's DIY skimmers. I don't know if you have his skills or tools (I know I don't ) but he has made some excellent skimmers, including a Bubbleking mini 160 clone that cost him around $300 to complete. That's is my advice. FWIW AA did a skimmer comparison in 09 and a follow up in '10 with some interesting results that may be worth looking up.

[davidian]

You could use essentially the same design as the venturi skimmer I described, but with the addition of a closed-loop needle wheel pump running counter-current, could you not? If not, why not? If so... would this be a good way to go? I was also looking at thread wheel or mesh wheel mods for these. Seems easy enough and supposedly yields fantastic results.

Ben, I know you said you haven't had any experience personally with these "bubble disks." Can anybody else chime in that might give me a little insight on these?

Ben, I'm glad you went to all the trouble to list all those skimmers, but that information is meaningless to me. They show you a pretty, shiny picture of it empty, and you can't really find a good diagram or explanation of how each one works, so make and model does nothing for me. And I don't have a well-stocked LFS anywhere close where I can just go check them all out. And they're so expensive, I've not even bothered looking at production model skimmers. I had a HOT skimmer with my second tank that cost over $100 (which I thought was a lot of money at the time), was tiny, and used a venturi with a 1/8" airline connected. It was small and absurdly simple for the money, but it removed untold amounts of dark rancid green-brown sludge from my 75g tank. I was thinking I could just scale that up and build something with about 10 times the capacity for around the same money. I was looking at clear PVC. Just about everything I had read said taller=better, so I was debating twin 3", 4' tall; twin 4", 3' tall; or a single 6", 3' tall. The clear PVC is not cheap, so 3" gives you the most height for your money. However, 6" gives you the most volume for your dollar at 4x the volume and <2x the price of the same height of 3".

Also, the Silicone I that I bought, I think I'll just use it for other projects and get some RTV108 instead to reseal the DT. I've heard lots of success stories with Silicone I. But I've also heard the RTV108 is superior, and if I can get something that will work better or last longer for a reasonable price, that's the route I'm going.

Back to the covers, I was thinking a full plexiglas cover for the sump but just a partial cover for the DT, a few inches wide around the perimeter where most of the salt creep takes place, with mesh in the center. Light gets in, air gets in, salt and fish don't get out.

How about this? I was playing with the idea of building a 2- or 3-chambered acrylic tank into the hood of my DT with a siphon tube in each chamber. Each chamber would fill at a slightly different giving me randomly alternating surge flow. Totally hidden. Plenty of room left for LED and MH or PC lighting. It would only take about the rear 1/3 of the hood. Thoughts on this? Is 5 gallons or 3.3 gallons at a time enough surge to be beneficial? If so, how should it be timed? Just wondering if this would be worth the time and effort. I realize it would make the hood heavy. I have a plan for that, too. I'll be installing a counter-weighted cable-and-pulley system to allow the hood to be easily hoisted out of the way, surge tank and all.