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[cortez marine]

Aside from the horrifying human toll in Bali following this weeks bombing there may be much more to come.
The countries Minister of Tourism said..."We're finished".
If our own trade had much of a chance to effect reforms in Indos defiantly willful and unapologetic cyanide trade in tropical fish, they may have just been delt a serious blow. As dangerous as it has been for the past decade to even attempt change there, it is much worse now. I for one, will not be going there to train with any organization. My wife didn't want it before the bombing...now its out of the question.
Unless Muslim trainers from Indonesia can come outside their country to be trained properly, its not going to happen now. I mean trained to a professional standard of real commercial fish collecting with no backsliding, not just enough to impress non professionals [which has generally been the case for the past decade].
I hope coral farms, sarcophyton and zooanthid culture and clam farms take off in a big way outside of Indo as this trade has too many of its eggs in one basket. That tragic bombing was not what the newly emerging experiment in Democracy in Indo needed at all and it reminds us that the country that anchors the entire reef trade is not a good bet for the future.
We are dependant upon Indo for much more than most people relize.
The only country left with anywhere near the abundance and diversity the trade thinks its entitled to is New Guinea.
Starting with a clean slate and no history of cyanide fishing, New Guinea will be the challenge of the decades to come.

Steve Robinson

[Kalkbreath]

Hey Steve , ever going to New York again? or howbout ever flying in a jet again? To give in to the bombers' wishes, is to let him achieve his goals...........I for one Proudly and defiantly returned to the Olympic games the day after the bombing here in Atlanta ........You are giving way to much power to people which do not deserve our respect or recognition!
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[flameangel]

Kalk-- you are not even on the same track with your comment above !!!!New York is civilized- modern-some corruption but nowhere near the conditions over there.

I apologize for his comment , Steve- some of us do know you should NOT even try to go over there and work, until/unless things very much change within the current government.
This hobby is nowhere near that important !!!!!!!!

[Kalkbreath]

You have a better chance of being killed in the big Apple then in Bali ,if comparing the number of murdered Americans each year in both locations! And more US city bound airplanes have crashed or been "attacked" in the last ten years then planes leaving or arriving to the island of Bali............so safety is in the eye of the beholder now isnt it?
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[PeterIMA]

I agree with Steve, Indonesia is too dangerous to consider an outsider (American) conducting net-training there. One solution is for Indonesians to come to a training site in the Philippines in order to train the trainers (train Indonesians as trainers). The MAC did have a workshop with participans from Indonesia, the Solomon Islands earlier this year. Lida PetSoude (coordinator for WWF Indonesia) visited the Philippines and witnessed the Feasability Study and Collection Area Management Plan (CAMP) trainings coordinated by Ferdinand Cruz (seconded to MAC by IMA). Hence, some cross training of Indonesians has occurred. I would like to see more of this carried out.

Sincerely,
Peter J. Rubec
International Marinelife Alliance

[cortez marine]

Hello,
I just got a chance to get to town and hey...
I didn't mean that I want to avoid danger from terrorists in general. I ment danger from the Indonesian cyanide cartel and their field operatives who have already threatened people. Using the new terrorist inspired atmoshere as a coverup for doing harm to reformers was what I ment.
My trainers and I were already threatened enough by exporters and their goons in the Philippines before. Indonesia is still back in the dark ages where we were in the Philippines 20 years ago and they have already made their intentions known before the Bali bombing. After the Bali bombing, if anything unfortunate should befall a trainer, they could blame it on the terrorists more easily.
I have no problem traveling to Africa, Indo, Bali or Yemen for that matter as a silly tourist, but as a net training rabble rouser...well, what could be more threatening to an entrenched and determined cyanide trade then reformers who really mean it?
There are plenty of 'environmental and social development types who work in dangerous areas without harm. Its actually achieving reform and challenging the old, corrupt order that is dangerous..
I certainly would never pretend to go do the job if I didn't intend to really do it. Backing off, watering it down, greenwashing it or selling out is not an option.
FROM BAJA, Steve Robinson

[Kalkbreath]

I understand ,but to bring this up right after the bombings...seems to be giving the bad guys the response they are wishing for? And thus rewarding the actions andencouraging more........
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[flameangel]

Kalk,,
You are thinking as a nice safe civilized, go to the Olympics with our planes over head watching out for you and police all over the place protecting you. That is no comparison to what Steve would be facing over there !!! Have YOU ever been to a country like that !!!!
Until you have, you really have no right to come down on anyone who has and knows what he is talking about.

Steve is worth far more to this industry ALIVE and safe- than to become another Danial Perle !!!!!!!!!

[Kalkbreath]

"the bombings are keeping me from going to Indonesia" steve reacted to the bombings If we as a people are going to respond to terrorists acts in a manor which is exactly what the terrorists hope to acheive ,,then we are all doomed to be at the mercy of the bad guys. from now on........ One more attack on New York ...... and that city will cease to funtion again just like Bali . And through no fault of its own .
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[flameangel]

kalk,

My trainers and I were already threatened enough by exporters and their goons in the Philippines before. Indonesia is still back in the dark ages where we were in the Philippines 20 years ago and they have already made their intentions known before the Bali bombing. After the Bali bombing, if anything unfortunate should befall a trainer, they could blame it on the terrorists more easily.

Did you even read this ???
It is obvious that you have never been to countries that are nowhere near what New York was, back in Al Capones days even !!
We don't have coups in this country either.

You may disagree with the American democracy- but at least it is an established democracy and you can disagree and not get killed for it.

[Kalkbreath]

Im not sure why you think the bomb at the tourist night club was not intended to keep steve and others from feeling comfortable about comming to the island, it sure made Steve think twice, and thus Steve and you are rewarding the bombers with exactly what they wanted to happen . You also seem to be siding with the terrorists in that you to wish ill things to the island of Bali?
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[JennM]

Im not sure why you think the bomb at the tourist night club was not intended to keep steve and others from feeling comfortable about comming to the island, it sure made Steve think twice, and thus Steve and you are rewarding the bombers with exactly what they wanted to happen . You also seem to be siding with the terrorists in that you to wish ill things to the island of Bali?

Hey Kalk, you're welcome to hop on a plane and head right on over to Bali and make a difference. You haven't mentioned yet that you're rushing out to buy a ticket to set an example for us all. It's easy to tell somebody else what they should be doing, but if you had to walk a mile in their shoes, would you be so bold?

I wouldn't. I'd be afraid, and I'm not ashamed to admit it. Sounds to me like it was already volatile over there in regards to Steve's work. I echo Judy's sentiments. There's no value in going over there to become another statistic.

Jenn

[SPC]

Posted by Kalk:

thus Steve and you are rewarding the bombers with exactly what they wanted to happen . You also seem to be siding with the terrorists in that you to wish ill things to the island of Bali?

-Awww, I think with this last statement I am finally beginning to see where Kalk is coming from.
Kalk, please expound a bit on your last trip to Bali or any other country in the South Pacific.
Steve

[dizzy]

I agree with Steve, Indonesia is too dangerous to consider an outsider (American) conducting net-training there. One solution is for Indonesians to come to a training site in the Philippines in order to train the trainers (train Indonesians as trainers). The MAC did have a workshop with participans from Indonesia, the Solomon Islands earlier this year. Lida PetSoude (coordinator for WWF Indonesia) visited the Philippines and witnessed the Feasability Study and Collection Area Management Plan (CAMP) trainings coordinated by Ferdinand Cruz (seconded to MAC by IMA). Hence, some cross training of Indonesians has occurred. I would like to see more of this carried out.

Sincerely,
Peter J. Rubec
International Marinelife Alliance

Peter,

Approximately how many Indonesian divers went to the Philippines for training? I think they should try to select the natural leaders from the Indo divers and train them to train the rest. There also has to be some increased financial rewards for net collecting verus cyanide. Given the spread of Islamic Extremism and the hatred for Americans and Western freedoms, I think IMA and MAC have monumental tasks ahead. Hopefully a spirit of co-operation will evolve within the industry to help deal with these problems.

[PeterIMA]

Reply to Redneck, The number of collectors trained by IMA in Indonesia is less than 100. We had trainings near Manado, Sulawesi in 1999 coordinated by Ferdinand Cruz. Steve tells me that he trained collectors in Bali about 10 years ago. There were about 100 net-collectors in Bali in 1994, but their numbers have declined as Filipino companies moved in introducing cyanide. As far as the recent cross-training through the MAC I don't know how many people were involved. My guess is less than 10 people. I will try to find out and get back to you with an answer.

I drafted a reply to Steve's earlier message. But, I am having difficulty in getting it posted. I will send it to Mary Middlebrook.

Peter Rubec
IMA

[MaryHM]

Well, here's one implication. Frieght rates have gone up by $1 per kg out of Indo as of last week.

[Kalkbreath]

Lets look at it another way.........it could very well be that one person{the Bomber} by blowing up the night club in Bali .........has single handedly ended any and all hope for hobby collection reform {net fishing} Something that thousands of people like yourselves have worked for for years tward ......... Hurt the tourism business to the extent that now the islanders will have to turn to the alternative industries {Agriculture, mahogany, cement and MORE sea food } will place a much a greater strain on the reefs then the tourism did. All this new harm to both the reefs and the people of Bali ,because you chose to do exactly what the terrorist wanted you to do {stay away}? Pretty effective activity this terror business! One man snuffed out all your hopes and dreams and you people are going to reward him? very odd?
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[cortez marine]

Hello,
By the time I can get back to town a mistake can just hang there for days.
As I already said in my last post, its not the Bali bomber who has kept out reform in Indo for the last 15 years, it was our trades very own
reef terrorists who did. The cyanide cartel in Indo has been killing its coral as fast as it can and aside from signing on with a MAC letter of commitment has not skipped a beat since.
Since any serious Philippine trainings have yet to restart...how could any Indo trainings be worth anything? Besides, its not how many are claimed to have been trained...its how many actually use the nets today!
To claim that anything significant has been done...they would at least have to have access to the netting material that the Philippines itself is lacking.
Eco terrorism kills reefs, excaberates poverty and ruins the trade in every way. Its a form of treason really and does considerable damage.
The ones who do this...These are the animals I´m the most concerned about.
Sincerely, Steve

[ScottC]

Freight just got a little more out of hand, and I had a real hard time getting sand sifting stars.