Reefs.org Forums

[ReefRelated]

Do you think it's possible to take this medication to your local drug store, explain what your doing and be very friendly , and maybe they will do this for you. I would guess they would have the equipment needed to do this. It's not like we are dealing with a dangerous drug here.

I think a scale that would reading down to .01 would be OK to use wouldn't it? That would get you to the nearest 10mg right? I don't think being off just a couple mg on a 250g system is going to make a difference. If you have a small system then I guess it would become more critical.

[ReefRelated]

I have 250g of water in my system. I need to use 625mg of this med. So if I have a scale that reads down to .01 grams then I would need to weigh out .62 or .63 correct? This would mean I should only be off about 5mg for my treatment.

[John_Brandt]

More needs to be said about this dosage issue.

1) We are told to measure out the medication to 0.001 grams. Do not give it your "best shot".

2) We are told to estimate the total volume of the system, giving it our "best shot".

It would seem that hyperaccuracy with the medication could be nullified by a "loose" estimation of aquarium volume. See where I'm going with this?

Some mathematician with a calculator should be able to calculate how accurate we need to be with estimating tank volume to give the same accuracy as our medication dosage. Worst case scenario is an overestimate of tank volume in conjunction with an underestimate of medication weight.

I know that it depends on the actual volume of the aquarium but....if we apply the same hyperaccuracy that we do to the medication, to the tank, do we need to know the volume down to teaspoons?

[-JB]

Tony,

I was thinking about just asking the local pharmacy as well. Oh course, then I would have to do it three times and if I decided to use the med for quarantining new corals I would have to go down there every time.

I need a "Salifert Red Bug Destroyer" to come out in little easy to measure spoonfuls!!!

[DustinDorton]

John, your right about the problem of having to estimate your water volume. When I set the dosage the precise water volume was knowsn. There is no practical way to know the exact volume of a system. It better to conservatively estimate your water volume and dose the medication precisely.

There are two important variables there, do your best to eliminate one of them.

[DustinDorton]

I forgot to mention that the medication can be ground up into several pre-measured doses and stored. I kept it in air tight containers in a cool dark place for weeks without it loosing potency.
This might help out for people who are having problems getting it weighed out.

[John_Brandt]

John, your right about the problem of having to estimate your water volume. When I set the dosage the precise water volume was knowsn. There is no practical way to know the exact volume of a system. It better to conservatively estimate your water volume and dose the medication precisely.

There are two important variables there, do your best to eliminate one of them.

But Dustin, one of the variables is not eliminated, because the exact dosage is based on the other "variable" not being variant.

IOW, allowing a "best estimate" of tank volume is no different than allowing dosage accuracy to 0.01gm rather than 0.001gm. Or in the case of a large aquarium possibly even 0.1gm?

[ReefRelated]

So interesting you brought this up John. I came to my computer to bring up your exact point. You stole my thought . If my scale can get me within 10mg then it should be fine. I could easily be off 10 gallons when I calculate my water volume which equals 25mg of medication. I wouldn't doubt it if I am off even more than 10 gallons. Anyone have a good way of estimating tank volume excluding rock and sand. This would be very helpful right now.

[John_Brandt]

Ok, I should restate for clarity.

The only non-variable is your recommended dosage of 25mg (0.025 grams) per 10 gallons of actual tank water. Which could be restated as 0.025 gm per 1280.00 oz.


The variables are the actual precise weight of the medication sitting on the hobbyist's balance, and the actual precise volume of tank water.

[John_Brandt]

So interesting you brought this up John. I came to my computer to bring up your exact point. You stole my thought . If my scale can get me within 10mg then it should be fine. I could easily be off 10 gallons when I calculate my water volume which equals 25mg of medication. I wouldn't doubt it if I am off even more than 10 gallons. Anyone have a good way of estimating tank volume excluding rock and sand. This would be very helpful right now.

Tony, your 'allowable error' is relative to tank volume. You will not miscalculate a 10 gallon aquarium by 10 gallons.

[ReefRelated]

Joe,
I would go and have them measure out for at least your three minimum treatments in separate containers. It is going to be more difficult when we want to use this stuff for dipping corals because we only need a tiny bit of this med. That's when it would become more handy to have a scale that measures .01 or even better .001.

[ReefRelated]

Tony, your 'allowable error' is relative to tank volume. You will not miscalculate a 10 gallon aquarium by 10 gallons.

Very true. You will on the other hand need a scale that measures .001 to treat that 10g tank.

[andrejka]

To more or less accurately dose systems of less than several hundred gallons, one could simply dissolve a tablet in, let's say 1 liter (1,000 ml) of tank water, and than use required amount of the water containing the medication. The rest of water containing the drug can be frozen for future dosing.

Example:
If 1 tablet is dissolved in 1 liter, than this 1 liter will treat 380 gallons. So, use 100 ml (0.1 liter) to treat a 38-gallon system.

All you need now is figure how to use US volumetric system instead of easy metric one

[Christyf5]

Heh, Andrejka, you beat me to it.

But the question is, is this stuff still potent after freezing?

Christy
_________________
Excalibur

[DustinDorton]

John, I said do your best to eliminate one of the variables. This can be done by getting an exact weight on the medication. As I stated no matter what, you will be guessing on your tank volume. You shouldnt guess on top of that guess the weight of the medication. Justifying the guess because you guessed once already does not make sense.

I came up with a suggested dosage that was effective. If you want to challenge it, and reccommend a different dosage and treatment protocol, I welcome you to organize a few months worth of testing. After that testing is done, I welcome you to present it to the members of this board.

You are not making it any easier for people to treat their tanks with this stuff and I am not comfortable with the suggestions you are making.

[DustinDorton]

Adressing some earlier posts.

1. The medication is not effective as a short term dip. Especially not at the standard dosage. The treatment needs to be at least 6 hours long at 25mg/10gal. Even at 2500mg/10gal the bugs still lived for over 30minutes.

2. The medication is not _easily_ soluble in water. I dont know how effective dissolving it in water and adding it to your tank as a liquid would be.

3. The medication does not freeze, I have tried it.





People, take your time with this and think it through. Dont rush into it. If you try hard enough you will come up with a place that will weigh the medication properly.

[ReefRelated]

How evenly do you believe this medication is distributed throughout each pill? I like this idea of mixing it in water but according to Dustin it isn't very soluble. Next task, find a way to make it soluble. It can't be that hard!

All this discussion is bringing up some great ideas. I think John was only trying to point out some obstacles.

[DustinDorton]

I dont know how evenly its distributed in the pill. Every test was successful when the medication was simply ground up. Even tests where the pill was split in half and one part was ground up.

It will dissolve into water, but it takes some effort and some time. There isnt much need to figure out how to make it more soluble. The only thing you need to figure out is how to weigh the proper, suggested amount.

All of this discussion has already taken place, all of these problems have been worked out. The dosage and protocol is set. There is no need to reinvent the wheel.

Please, take your time, most corals can live for a very very long time with the bugs. You have a lot of time to figure out what your water volume is, where you can get the medication and where you can weigh out the doses.

Please everyone stop looking for shortcuts, you are taking a risk with your tanks. Stick to what has worked for those of us who have treated.

[Blue Jester]

Anyone actually look into how to measure out the medication? A scale with 0.001 readability is really hard to find, let along having one lying around. I can find scales that are good to 0.01 grams for about $60, but nothing at 0.001. Any suggestions?

Use .05g per 20 gallons.

[Blue Jester]

Some things I've found:

1 - It is soluble enough in water for this not to be an issue...

2 - On my second and third treatments, I dissolved the medication into 250ml of tank water in a small vial and shook it up prior to addition.