Rick Collins

I was just reading a weekly "specials" email that I receive from one of the online livestock places. They stated "We have the only program that includes testing for drug caught specimens". Is this possible, or is it just marketing B.S.?

Eric Borneman

Peter Rubec developed a testing program for cyanide which is being used on random samples in the Philippines. His talk on the subject at 9ICRS Bali discussed mostly samples from food fish, as cyanide use is illegal in that country. He also stated that it is very possible to do the same for all aquarium collections. Thing is, it isn't being done all the time, or in other countries, on a regular basis at all.

I don't have my notes on this talk...maybe Mike Kirda remembers some more from his presentation.

Rich King

Its not BS. In the philllipines they are doing net caught, cyanide free fish. The WHOLE fish is tested via a blender.

Keith Redfield

As mentioned, the fish are euthanized, then, ahem, digested in sulfuric acid. The actual cyanide test is done via ion-specific electrode. Since the testing began some 5 years ago, the percentage of fish testing positive in PI has dropped from over 80% to around 20%. The program is still not compulsory (it will be in a couple more years from what I understand), and there are currently no penalties for a positive test. What they are basically trying to do right now is give the exporters a chance to find out who the cyanide users are and adjust their buying habits accordingly. We rely on the IMA to point us to the best distributors. IMA also runs the testing labs under contract to the gov't.

To my knowledge, we are the only US wholesale importer of fish from the only exporter who consistently tests clean, but I would love to find out about others. We get copies of the (negative) test certificates for each batch of fish the exporter brings in. There is also apparently a report which the PI BFAR agency produces, [which I've yet to get my hands on personally] which lists the cyanide percentage for each exporter.

Please let the list(s) know who sent the blurb out. It's really important that the efforts to stop cyanide fishing are supported, and buying tested fish is the best way to do that. It would be neat if a fully commercial operation (vs us as a non-profit) would start supporting the program and bringing in more fish from PI. [Competition is a non-issue - we are only big enough to handle a few stores]. One of our stores is Coral Farms and they are internet based, but the rest are brick & mortar.

Although cyanide fishing started in PI, they are now the only country with an effective program to eradicate it, so it would be nice to see them garner some reward for the effort. Indonesia is believed to be the worst location for cyanide fishing currently, and estimates are that over 80% of fish caught there are dosed. IMA is working on establishing a laboratory there, but it's expensive and requires extensive gov't support, which Indonesia has not been in a position to provide until recently.

One thing I want to make sure everyone understands is that although cyanide is not great for the fish, it's greatest damage is to the reefs. Cyanide in very low doses kills plants, and basically, all the algae die. You know from Dr. Ron's posts that reefs are mostly (like 80%) algae, and of course the zooxanthelae in corals are also algae. So the net effect of an acute dose of cyanide to a coral head or reef area is utter destruction.

It is a comparatively small cause of reef destruction in the areas it's used (compared to blast fishing, muro ami, and the food-fish trade), but it's also the only one we can directly change by being informed and buying accordingly.

Mike Kirda

One thing I want to make sure everyone understands is that although cyanide is not great for the fish, it's greatest damage is to the reefs. Cyanide in very low doses kills plants, and basically, all the algae die. You know from Dr. Ron's posts that reefs are mostly (like 80%) algae, and of course the zooxanthelae in corals are also algae. So the net effect of an acute dose of cyanide to a coral head or reef area is utter destruction.

Oh, Keith, it is far worse than that...

Coral that gets hit with cyanide above a certain concentration for a fairly short time period is killed dead. The tissue goes white, then dies within a few days. The coral heads turn white within 24 hours. James Cervino had a pretty sobering presentation on this at 9 ICRS.

Let me also make one distinction between the two trades aquarium fish and food fish. Food fish trade uses cyanide as well- but even the more dire estimates of coral death would put this at about 1 square meter per large fish (i.e. grouper), which comes out to about 1% of the reef area per year. The truth is that coral reefs can recover from this. This is not to say that the food fish populations can. The aquarium fish trade is a lot worse- they will hammer the same reef repeatedly, and instead of directing the cyanide into crevices to get out larger fish, they squirt it all up into the coral heads to stun the fish and get them out. And believe me, the fish know how to hide in coral. James followed a cyanide guy around snapping photos, then hit the same reef the next day to photograph the corals- the cyanided coral heads all looked like they had been dipped in bleach. Photo after photo after photo... Week later, algae was already growing on the skeleton.

David Mohr

As a non-scientist I'm wondering here about something ( and I could be way off )that maybe someone can answer.

These collectors are using Sodium Cyanide, and although studies have shown that levels of cyanide do not build up in the tissues of fish would it be possible for levels to stay level in the livers of fish? Studies have shown on mice exposed to cyanide levels that were bred produced 100% mortality on the F2 generations. So if I carry my hypothesis further, these fish that were exposed but not collected, could in the long term be also in the same predicament? F2 generations would be expected to have a higher mortality rate if not 100% mortality rate? In effect not only are they killing corals and fish now but threatening their existence in the future. Just curious.

Kevin McDonald

I see what you're saying... My guess would be that it must not hold true in fish for some reason, otherwise they surely would have put themselves out of business by now... Cyanide fishing's been around for a while, hasn't it? The life cycle of most fish I don't think is all that old, and certainly breeding age comes about quickly, if large numbers had been exposed, there just wouldn't be very many small fish in the sea. That certainly would help explain some of the reports of fish out in the wild, but I would think by now it would have had some rather significant impacts. Unless that just improves the odds of more fry surviving from non-contaminated adults... Wanna really twist you're noodle, wonder what impact that has on the gene pool?

David Mohr

I presume so, but the reports of the scarcity of many fish species is often attributed to over collecting, could it be possible it's from mortality rates of the offspring from cyanide?

Do we know what levels of cyanide kill corals? They claim cyanide dissipates fairly quickly from the water surface so I would presume in a reef situation with the turbulence it wouldn't be in the water long............... Can cyanide build up in the tissue of corals without killing them? If so, how would that impact the offspring of corals?

Mike Kirda

Do we know what levels of cyanide kill corals?

600 ppm for a minute or so will kill them outright. Typical solutions of sodium cyanide in a squirt bottle used in fish capture are often much higher. If I remember correctly, numbers were in the 5,000 to 15,000 part range, with jets often containing bits of undissolved cyanide. This is from James Cervino's presentation. I don't have the higher numbers written down- these are from memory...

They claim cyanide dissipates fairly quickly from the water surface so I would presume in a reef situation with the turbulence it wouldn't be in the water long...............

On a given coral, no. It really, really depends here. If in slack tide, the 'cloud' could drift over quite an area without dissipating.

Can cyanide build up in the tissue of corals without killing them? If so, how would that impact the offspring of corals?

Offspring? They would cease to produce gametes. Building up? I have no idea if you give a coral a sub-lethal dose if the cyanide stays in the tissue.

These are questions to ask of a scientist who studies the issue...

David Mohr

On a given coral, no. It really, really depends here. If in slack tide, the 'cloud' could drift over quite an area without dissipating.

I understand this, as from what I've read the cyanide when it reaches the surface turns to a gas ( unfortunately I can't find my reference for this at this time so I don't remember the gas ) and disperses into the air.

Offspring? They would cease to produce gametes.

That's what I'm trying to get at. At what levels of cyanide would they cease? If they did produce gametes what would the effects be on the new colonies from low levels of cyanide in the parents?

These are questions to ask of a scientist who studies the issue..

Which is why I posed the question. ;-) I've been doing some searches and sent out some emails, still pulling some stuff together. The point I'm trying to make is, would low levels of cyanide in a corals tissues cause defects in its offspring? Could these defects possibly explain problems we see with wild collected corals?

Wade

I'm jumping into the middle of this conversation for the most part, so forgive if I have missed something...

Cyanide acutely works by binding to hemoglobin and staying there (usually by a shift to an acid form). The binding constant is higher than that of oxygen so it doesn't release too well therefore creatures using heme centered molecules (including Cu based 'blue-blooders') die from acute suffocation. As to long term effects, I am currently looking and will let you know what I find (the studies will more than likely be animal based as already mentioned in this thread). But, I can add that as far as an ability of cyanide to buildup in the fish it is doubtful due to the fact that the fish kidneys have a huge rate of excretion and that CN, being rather polar doesn't cross cell membranes easily (and is excreted easily). The problem areas will be those with a high degree of contact such as red blood cells. But, if the cells are affected and die (they carry nuclei, therefore live slightly longer than mammalian cells under normal circumstances) the contents are filtered readily.

The volatility of NaCN and CN are nearly absent, therefore it will not become gaseous and enter the atmosphere with any real presence, but stay dissolved as a salt in water. (very high water solubility) Except in cases of acid environment, where it becomes highly unstable and gaseous. See this reference http://ntp-server.niehs.nih.gov/htdocs/CHEM_H&S/NTP_Chem1/Radian143-33-9.html

According to this reference CN is a reproductive toxicant (meaning it causes developmental issues while an animal is pregnant, which would include acute exposure to eggs or sperm), but doesn't appear to carry generationally. Also, there is no current data indicating that the compound is mutagenic (ie- interacts with DNA). Of course, that is just a fast look at the available data not a comprehensive look into the literature on my part. Hope that helps!!

One more bit.. aquatic exposure data is mostly unavailable by the NTP based report I quoted previously, although I know it exists in the literature now for many specific marine animals.

David Mohr

I'm jumping into the middle of this conversation for the most part, so forgive if I have missed something...

No problem, as I stated I'm not a scientist, I jump in the middle of stuff even if it's above my head, if I don't understand something but don't ask, I'll never learn.

The volatility of NaCN and CN are nearly absent, therefore it will not become gaseous and enter the atmosphere with any real presence, but stay dissolved as a salt in water. (very high water solubility) Except in cases of acid environment, where it becomes highly unstable and gaseous.

I came up with this link http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/tfacts8.html , it states most cyanide in surface water will form hydrogen cyanide and evaporate.

Also in the link it states effects on the reproductive systems were seen in rats and mice that drank water containing sodium cyanide. I'm still compiling stuff.

Wade

It states most cyanide in surface water will form hydrogen cyanide and evaporate.

Ah. That's good to know. It does state surface waters, which would include reefs, but not such as the sunken cargo near PNG. I imagine, based on the chemistry I do know, that in order to form HCN (the gas) it would have to do so in the uppermost levels of the water column, perhaps even the gas/liquid interface.

Also in the link it states effects on the reproductive systems were seen in rats and mice that drank water containing sodium cyanide.

That statement can mean (you'd have to dig into the literature they site) either a) acute lethality to existing reproductive cells or b) enough acute cellular injury (generic injury) to permanently impair reproductive function. But, if option b were the case, it would logically follow that the liver, kidneys, gills, etc would also have recieved such debilitating doses pushing the fish toward death. Reproductive issues are usually only seen in chronic situations, which according to both of these sites, does not occur in fish (says nothing about invertebrates).

Just my take on the situation. Let us know if you compile a 'complete' set of data and make it available, I'd like to have a look at the whole of it and keep it.

Kevin McDonald

The interesting thing of all this for us non-scientific folk, is the comment about Cyanide's mode of operation... Further evidence that if you see a fish laboring to breath in the LFS, leave it be. Wouldn't you say?

David Mohr

Yes but for more reasons then just cyanide. So far ( and I'm still barely scratching the service ) the main effect from cyanide ( other then death ) is ataxia ( wasting away, loss of vision, coordination ). What I'm trying to get as is what are the effects of low-levels ( if there are any ) of cyanide on fish, fry, eggs, etc. I'm trying to steer this in a direction that may mean something ( or may not ), but for the sake of my curiosity I'm looking.

Robert Fenner

Or if "overly colorful", acting ataxically ("spaced out"), not eating... As many folks "have been trying to say" for decades... Bob Fenner, who still has hope that something in the way of boycotting doomed specimens has a nullifying effect on nefarious collection practices.

Keith Redfield

As a non-scientist I'm wondering here about something ( and I could be way off )that maybe someone can answer. These collectors are using Sodium Cyanide, and although studies have shown that levels of cyanide do not build up in the tissues of fish would it be possible for levels to stay level in the livers of fish?

There is some evidence that thiocyanate is a persistent metabolite in fish (as it is in humans - it's used as a marker to see how much you smoke). Anecdotal reports are that a large percentage of fish suffer acute poisoning at the collection site, and simply die right there. Later metabolic effects are a little dicier, as I don't think any studies have been done on subsequent reproductive success (since we can't breed many species you can see the problem - damsels would be a good candidate). There are documented changes in liver and kidney function, so I'm sure ultimate reproductive success is limited at best.

The thiocyante angle is key to our goal to develop a US-based cyanide test. Unfortunately we've not been successful in getting the grants to pursue that project. Any Chemistry majors out there looking for a PhD thesis?

David Mohr

The thiocyante angle is key to our goal to develop a US-based cyanide test. Unfortunately we've not been successful in getting the grants to pursue that project. Any Chemistry majors out there looking for a PhD thesis?

Actually since I posted this I've been doing a little research ( sort of my project at the moment ) and have come up with, so far, quite a bit of info about cyanide's effect in the wild on fish and their reproduction. From what I've seen so far is even *extremely* low levels of cyanide will inhibit the reproductive process in fish. The info is kind of few and far in between but it is there, the problem is sorting out the relevant and the not, the anecdotal and the facts. Hopefully I can tie this all together into something of semblance.