Mike Kirda

Being that I'll be moving at the end of the summer into a new house, and FINALLY setting up my new tank, I started thinking/rethinking some of the issues I've discovered with my current setup.I was starting to pack up some of the things in the basement this weekend. One thing I noticed was that some of my tools were rusty. Things that were put away, i.e. flat drill bits meant to cut holes in wood (which had never been used), were rusty. To me, this indicated that I had a humidity issue downstairs.

The 'tank', as such, has been a 300 gallon Rubbermaid sump. It would evaporate up to 5 gallons a day during the winter...I had a portable dehumidifier running, and it pulls a good deal of water vapor out of the air. But there is still noticeable humidity down there...

In light of this, I'm wondering how others with large basement sumps have dealt with the humidity issue. I don't have any mold/mildew anywhere, but in the new place, I'm more worried about this possibility.

Thoughts?

Jimmy Chen

Dehumidifier?

Charles

Since my large tank and sump are in a living space, when the AC was being installed I had an extra return put in that room to carry off the humidty. Don't know if that's an option for your basement. Adding one after the fact (even if it's just a return without a supply) might be something to consider but an AC specialist should be consulted so you don't put the system out of balance. Optionally, if your basement has windows/doors to outside areas, fans circulating air in/out will help since, even while raining, the total humidity is less than 4% (100% relative humidity is about 3% true humidty).

But then you have to consider temperature.....

Mike Kirda

Dehumidifier?

Had one running. Didn't help enough, apparently. May not have been powerful enough. I also hate running it in the summer, as it heats the basement up quite a bit...

AC would help, but when the house uses a boiler, AC isn't an option...

Anyway, it will all be stuff I have to consider when building the sump 'area'... Might it be best to enclose the space and seal it? Vent air outside? Get a more Industrial-strength dehumidifier? Don't even know who to go to for help trying to figure out my options...

Charles

No AC at all? Wow, and boiler heat to boot. I sort of miss those days of clanging radiators :)

If you can enclose the space around your tanks then that's the best option because then you should be able to build an exhaust duct to the outside using 'dryer' air from the house for a supply. That might obviate the need for a dehumidifier of any sort. A smaller air space is also easier to control for temperature.

Aaron

With a dehumidifier your evaporation may be more intense. That would be the only down side of using one. But in theory could you not connect the dehumidifier up to drain back into your sump?

Mike Kirda

Sure you could. But then you would be adding a number of unknown and potentially nasty metals into your tank, as well as mucho dust/pollen/spores, etc. Just the sort of stuff we pay money to remove from our tap water...

Rather have it go down the drain...

Aaron

Maybe I am confused on how a dehumidifier works. But I thought it worked by taking the water that was in the air and condensing it till it was water again and then the water dripped off the condenser coils into a collection pan. This process to me seems to be just like how people remove the salt out of saltwater by means of evaporation/boiling it and collecting the steam as it cools condenses back into freshwater.

Mike Kirda

No, that's exactly how it works. But in a dehumidifier, you have to realize that water is very reactive. It dissolves the metal coils. Slowly to be sure, but dissolves them none the less.

Even if the cooling element was inert (i.e. glass), the air passing over them would contain dust/mold/pollen/spores etc. This would be attracted to the water, and be 'cleaned' somewhat. And then the water coming off the coils would have this stuff as well.

In a desalinization plant, the cooling towers would be inert, and be subjected only to the steam. A still worked in the same way. We can just tolerate the copper from the coils, where inverts couldn't... {grin}

Shane Graber

Since your sump is in the basement, the best bet would be to build a couple walls around it and seal it off from the rest of the basement. You could then vent it to the outside with a small fan thru a 4" dryer vent pipe. That was my plan at any rate if I ever made a basement sump setup... :)

Mike Kirda

No AC at all? Wow, and boiler heat to boot. I sort of miss those days of clanging radiators :)

Well, window units. But the radiators never clang... Or hiss. Just the occasional 'pop' when things expand or contract.

Since your sump is in the basement, the best bet would be to build a couple walls around it and seal it off from the rest of the basement.You could then vent it to the outside with a small fan thru a 4" dryer vent pipe.

So, in either case, you wouldn't mind the air-infiltration aspect? Think "winter"... In Chicago.

If I build up a room around the sump, then vent it to the outside, how would you control the fan? Some sort of humidity controller? What would then be a good number to shoot for?

Thoughts on venting heat from a chiller outside?

Almost seems like I should consider a vent in and out, with some sort of programmable controller to handle it. I have no idea about this sort of thing though. I'm sure that someone makes it. Anyone have any company names? This is one thing I know very little about... Never had any exposure to it at all...

Charles

Hmm, I think you are making it more complicated than need be. The goal is to vent your excess heat and humidity outside. A flapper valve (or manual valve) on your exhaust line to the outside will pretty much give you a one way system - room air (with excess heat and humidty) goes out. You might be successful using a dryer exhaust thingamajigger outside that closes itself when there is no forced air acting upon it. You can run the fan manually or on a timer or full time if you want (though on full time you probably don't need a very fast/powerful fan. Just one that will run steadily and not corrode with the heat and humidty.

To supply your room you should use the house air. It's already at a comfortable temperature and humidity, all you have to do is provide a means for it to enter your room. It can be as simple as a grate in the ceiling/floor over your room, or as complicated as ductwork from another part of the house.

I don't think you need controllers, thermometers, humidistats....... Air in Air out. Wax on, Wax off.

Kevin McDonald

Had one running. Didn't help enough, apparently. May not have been powerful enough. I also hate running it in the summer, as it heats the basement up quite a bit...

I moved my tanks into the basement of our new house, and have been having a hell of a time dealing with it in the summer. Winter's are great, I've completely un-hooked the furnace's Humidifier :-) The Humid days are the worst down here, the heat's not so much of a problem to deal with. When we moved in I got the biggest De-humidifier Sears Makes, told the wife it was going to be part of the moving expenses if we were sticking the tanks down there.. In the winter it's fantastic, as it helps heat the room. However in the summer, it's nearly impossible to run it anytime but at night (and even then). When the humidity is too high, it add's too much heat to the room, that the tank water won't evap. When the humidity's lower but the heat's high, It actually warms the tank by the ambient room temperature. Hot humid day's like we've been getting, and I have to run home and take a lunch break to shut the Halide's off. Part of it I've been told by some friends is that this basement is insulated, so YMMV.

AC would help, but when the house uses a boiler, AC isn't an option...

Got Central Air... And even then, it's hard. I've fiddled w/ the vents from the system, and it does help somewhat, but the cost of running the whole house on AC, vs. shutting the halides off for a few hours in the middle of the day... Is a no brainer for me come August.

Anyway, it will all be stuff I have to consider when building the sump 'area'... Might it be best to enclose the space and seal it? Vent air outside? Get a more Industrial-strength dehumidifier? Don't even know who to go to for help trying to figure out my options...

I've been trying to find "just the right fan" for my windows... We had Glass-Block replacement windows put into the basement when we moved in, and the vent space in them is very small. I've toyed w/ the idea of a Bathroom Ceiling type fan, and simply venting it out the side of the house (there already is a drop ceiling down here, and a large bush conveniently covers where the exit hole would be), but haven't come up w/ the Cahone's to actually punch a hole through the side of my house yet. I've got a sizeable chiller sitting next to my tank waiting to be hooked up (since I don't seem to be able to sell it for what it's worth), but I'd have to do some serious negotiating w/ the wife over the electric bill on that one, and honestly think the heat that it might add, will offset it's cooling abilities. Venting the air out of the house is the best option IMO (*though I haven't done it yet myself).

Jason E.

Check out the Dayton Ventalation fans here http://www.littlegreenhouse.com/accessory/vent.shtml . You could have the 800CFM fan wired to a timer and run it twice a day for about 2 minutes (depending on your room size). If you do go with something this powerful you may want to open a window down there so it doesnt suck your front door open. Unless you are into that kind of stuff.

Marty.Boeckman@veritas.com">Marty Boeckman

I installed an air exhanger. I have forced air heat, and the air exchanger just plugs right into the vents. So if you have forced air, that is what I would recommend.

I have no idea about this sort of thing though. I'm sure that someone makes it. Anyone have any company names?

http://www.summeraire.com/reshrv.html . Honeywell also makes a similar product.

Troy Folliott

Anyone have any company names?

Honeywell

As far as the winter air coming in with the set-up Shane mentioned, there are exterior air pre-heaters for using on your intake fan. Would probably work nicely.

Joe Stiene

I am building my new house/tank right now. I just met with my heating/cooling guy and builder again today. My tank is in my great room, 3 sides visible, with sump in basement. The canopy/top is enclosed on the tank. I have getting a exhaust fan for about $125 that is tied to a PVC line going up through the roof. They are also putting a "grill vent" in the top of the canopy structure to suck fresh room air in. Exhaust sucks hot air/humidity out through the roof. BTW, the more you spend on an exhaust, the quieter it is. The exhaust is on a dedicated circuit with timer. With this setup, I should not need a chiller and should not have an PH drops in winter when all windows are closed. If you want to see some pictures, let me know.

Ken Stockman

Maybe I missed something, but I would seem to think that most of the evaporation would take place at the tank and not the sump. Typically, you are blowing air across the surface of the tank to increase evaporation to cool the tank. I typically keep my sump covered. I guess that most of the humidity in my garage (where the sump is currently located) stems from the CC skimmer and all the air that is blowing through it. I had a 100 gallon sump in my basement for 3 years and did not notice any increased humidity or rusting tools. The tools were sitting near by. I am planning on enclosing my sump area and putting in a exhaust system or hooking it up to the AC. My main issue is not humidity, but rather that the tank is getting up to 86 F during hot summer days due to the temp in the garage.

David Corbett

I have a recently built fish room with ALLOT of tank surface area, naturally I have allot of evaporation. I live in North Texas so air conditioning is not an option, I installed a dedicated window unit and separate dehumidifier. An air conditioner by itself can't handle all the humidity especially if the weather is nice and it's not running, basically a dehumidifier is as important as a heater or air conditioner. I also sealed the floor, walls and ceiling to help battle moisture penetration, 10 years from now the elevated humidity could destroy the frame of a structure if left unchecked.

Tom DeBenedictis

This was my problem . All my mechanics tools got ruined..So I run a humidfier which throws off some heat which turns on the chiller then another controller turns on 2 fans in the hood(upstairs on tank) and 2-600cfm fans mounted in a box that is sealed around the basement window which pulls out enough air to close my basement door.Crazy or what?I had this whole set up in a closet and it work good there too.You could easily put in a humistat .Or you could hook up a control wire from your existing humidifier to turn on exhuast fans. Possibilties are endless.

Victor Eng

Another option is the humidex: http://www.humidexatlantic.com/

I saw one at a home improvement show and it seems to be a good way to lower the humidity in your house, while keeping energy costs low.

Brian Ferguson

This is in essence what I did when we moved to this house. The garage was "finished", and since it adjoins the living room, it allowed a hole to be cut into the living room wall. The tank is set so that one side is viewed from the living room, and the other three sides are a walkaround in the fishroom. The front side of the tank is framed in with a large picture-frame type of trim.

My tank is acrylic. One benefit is that the front rim is the same depth as the wall thickness, so that there isn't exposed water under the overhanging wall. Especially important if you're getting some serious water movement, which I'm sure you will be.

One really cool benefit of this is that you can make a really deep tank, front to back, so that when you look into it from the front, you've got serious depth perspective. Just be aware that cleaning that front side can be a PIA, depending on the width of the tank.

Make sure you work via code when you cut that hole in the wall...make sure the header is the proper size and all of that, and be extra carefull if you're opening a load-bearing wall. Also, I'd change out the drywall, if that's what you've got, to greenboard or similar, for water-resistance.The fishroom is cement/linoleum floored, which has helped now in three instances. Also, the garage was graded, so the water all runs to one corner. My sump is a large polytub. It sits next to the tank.

Humidity became an issue for me. I tried a dehumidifier, but it really didn't work very well. So I switched to a large window unit AC, and it helped greatly. I just let it run all the time, so there's air movement in the room. I would NEVER allow the air from the fishroom to be mixed with the rest of the air in the house, because of the salt in it. You don't want to get that into your air returns. I never got mold or mildew in the room, probably because I keep good air movement going, but anything metal in the room does rust over time. Also, some objects in nearby rooms are also rusting. I'm planning to put in another wall this summer, with a door, to separate the fishroom better from the surrounding rooms.

I located my chiller outside the house, and it's plumbed into one of the returns to the tank. It's alot quieter in the room now, and all of the heat is outside.

Mike Kirda stated that the humidity was the issue for the rust forming. Even more so is the salt dust in the air. Not that I do this alot, but I started tasting the dust in a few areas of my house, and noticed it was salty, which made me a little concerned. That's one serious drawback of the fans on the sump cooling method. Might want to think about this, especially in a new, non-rental house.

Some fishstores I've been to have had fresh air exchange systems installed to deal with this as well. The air exchange idea for the fishroom isn't a bad one. Winter temperatures can be dealt with. Just get some more heaters. ;-) I'd really try not to use the house heat or AC for this room anyway, unless you can prevent the air from returning to the rest of the house. In essence, make the the room operate under positive pressure, then vent this air outstide. The problem then arises that the HVAC system has to draw in makeup air from outside to replace the air that was vented. Usually this isn't an issue, since our houses are leaky.

I also discovered that the skimmer added alot of humidity to the room. I'm running about 2000 GPH through mine, with ALOT of air, and all of that air was venting back into the room. I now vent that air outside, and it helps alot.

Suggestions for your house:

Have a plastic laundry sink plumbed in, as well as a drain opening plumbed to the return pumps. That way, you can just have a ballvalve on the return pumps for waterchanges. I use a separate 100 gallon tub for fresh saltwater, so all I have to do is pump out the water from the sump, and then draw in the new water from the tub. 100 gallon waterchange in about 10 minutes, and I don't shut the system down during it.

Mount your lighting on a track overhead, so you can just roll it out of the way when working on the tank. I'll hook you up with where to get this, if you can't find it.

Make the platform that the tank sits on 6-10" larger on the three exposed sides in the back, so you've got a ledge to stand on. Plus, I'm sure you'll leave all sorts of crap on it when working around the tank. Makes a handy shelf.

Put in a dozen switches with dedicated outlets, and label them. That way, in an emergency, people can turn off lights, pumps, etc, separately.Run your skimmer sealed. IE, allow it to draw in air from the room, or even better, from outside. Run that air to a sealed waste collector, and then vent that air outside, instead of into the room. This decreased humidity alot for me, as well as the skimmate odor.

Separate the air returns for the room from the rest of your house. Don't allow the air from the fishroom to enter into main house HVAC, if possible. Or at least minimize it, and make the room operate under positive pressure.

Hope this all helps, can't think of anything else right now.

Mark Lanett

In essence, make the the room operate under positive pressure, then vent this air outstide. The problem then arises that the HVAC system has to draw in makeup air from outside to replace the air that was vented. Usually this isn't an issue, since our houses are leaky.

I'd just install two fans, one drawing air in, and one venting out. This way you control source of air as well rather than assuming leakiness and drawing house air into the fishroom.

In my case it will be quite necessary, because I am going to move my workbench and power tools out of the garage and into the same basement as the huge sump. So I don't want dusty air from the workshop going to the fishroom, or salty humid air from the fishroom going into the workshop. My solution will be to isolate the rooms from each other and give each room fresh air intake and effluent on (opposite) sides of the house. Leakiness would be bad.

Shane Graber

If you pull air in from the outside without going thru some sort of filtration system, how do you deal with insecticides that the towns/cities spray during the summer to combat mosquitoes

Mark Lanett

Insects? Not in San Francisco.

You could pull in air from wherever you want. My thinking is just that using a fan specifically to pull air in (as well as expell it) allows you to control, or filter, the source rather than relying on unknown leakage.