<EricEE> Good Evening. Albert Thiel will be giving a talk tonight about his visit with Dana Riddle and John Walsh at their new propagation facility. They were kind enough to share many details of their operation, and Albert is going to be giving us a full report.

It is a pleasure to be here tonite on #reefs again. Thank you for coming and joining the chat on my interviews with Dana Riddle and John Walch, as well as Mr and Mrs M. Clark, the major funders of the company called "The Aquatic Wildlife Company" in Cleveland TN. If you want to reach them to talk to John or Dana and discuss what they have for sale you can call them at (423) 559 9000

Let me give a few introductory notes and remarks and thank Dana and John and all others at the facility for allowing me total access to every single place. Nothing was off-limits. If you wish to have details about how the facility is set up feel free to ask questions and I will do my best to describe it as completely as I can. Not only did I see the grow-out areas, the frag areas, the full systems but also the extremely well equiped labora

I had the pleasure of interviewing Dana twice. Once in Cleveland and once in Atlanta. Both interviews were over an hour long and I will little by little post the HTML files of those interviews to our web site http://www.athiel.com

There are already several articles in a directory for the AWC (Aquatic Wildlife Company) on our web site and you can access them by clicking on the AWC banner on our main index page or from the Latest Site Changes area of the site.

Please note that Dana has been involved with AWC since January on a part time basis and since August on a full time basis. Some of the research was done under the auspices of AWC and some he did on his own. The methods he used are described in the document on our web site in the AWC directory. Just click on the Banner for AWC and you will find them listed there at the end of an introductory document.

The facility I visited is very large. I did not get the exact square footage but would have to say that it is around 20 K square feet at least. This is quite large for the purpose of propagating corals especially since there is not a square foot wasted. All space available has been put to use for either show tanks, grow-out vats and tanks, or displays.

As you may or may not know, AWC also manufactures the ecoReef system, a totally integrated system. This is described in detail in an article on our web site in the AWC directory. I have also reproduced John Walch's entire talk at the recent Las Vegas Western Conference, a talk of which he sent me the verbatim text.

Dana and I talked about lighting and how to look at it when thinking in terms of coral growth and pigmentation, skimming and his thoughts on that, turf scrubbers vs algae scrubbers, refugia, feeding, supplements, iodine, Lugol's, and a number of other topics all related to growing corals in captivity and working with frags and with cuttings. We also discussed fish breeding in captivity and I was shown was it is being done at the facility in that respect. Interestingly true perculas are being bred there. Really true ones <G>

Since you can read up a lot about my visit to AWC on our web site I will not describe it here but if you have questions with regard to any of the pieces and parts of it, feel free to ask the question.

I will need to refer to notes from time to time so if my answer does not come immediately all it means is that I am looking up what Dana and/or John said before answering. I think that is all for the introductions and I am now ready to take questions. Thank you again for being here. It is my pleasure to relay what I have seen and heard as best as I can. If I do not have an answer I will say so and will make a note of it, check with Dana and John and include the answer in the transcript.

Q: How does it compare to Dick Perrins place?

<Albert> Larger, more modern, more equipment, better laid out IMHO, more controls on each individual system, greater degree of measurements and more research data being collected larger variety of corals being fragged and raised, overall better impression of sophistication.

Q: Albert, can you describe in more detail the fish breeding facility? How large was it? Did they use vats, tanks, or glass aquariums for breeding? Any special filtration, or just exploded versions of what we do in our smaller tanks?

<Albert> The fish breeding facility takes up between 25 and 30 percent of the available space and is set up as a combination of tanks and vats some connected and some running individually to prevent transmittal of any disease or parasites. The section housed dozens and dozens of tanks in addition to the larger vats that are being used for breeding and pairing off fish to induce them to form pairs and then transfer them to aquariums where they can be observed and where the breeding can actually take place. The monitoring of water quality is real high and regular and is all recorded and logged so that whatever happens in any of the systems is documented and can be used to improve the techniques being used

Q: What were the biggest challenges they had to overcome in breeding marine fishes?

<Albert> Pairing off fish and adapting the techniques used to the size of the larvae to ensure survival rates that were acceptable and that were higher than what is accomplished by many who have tried to do this at home. In addition one of the major obstacles is always the feeding and what to feed and that has to be tailored based on what fish species is actually being bred as the size of the larvae determines what can be fed and what cannot (too large for the larvae and they will die of course .

Q: What kind of skimming was in use?

<Albert> Well that is a real interesting question indeed. Skimming is on the low side. There is certainly no intention to go for massive skimmers and very high skimming levels I discussed this with both Dana and John and was told that the main reason for not overskimming or skimming to a degree where deficiencies could occur was to ensure that enough food stuff, plantkton etc was left in the water so that all animals in all systems would be able to uptake whatever they needed to from the water. In essence the system is set up so that no nutrient poor environment is created and in fact, supplemental feeding is performed as well, not to speak of the presence of huge refugia which provide both zoo and phyto plankton that circulates through the various systems. The skimmers that I saw where small ETS models and they were skimming continuously and removing a very dry foam that was siphoned out of the collection cups and directed to drains. Skimming was definitely on the lower end of the scale. This did not seem to have any negative effect on any of the animals on the contrary. Of course as you know or may not know, turf scrubbers are in use in that facility as well and dump buckets ensure that the water stays in the turf bed for a certain amount of time before it is dumped into the systems, creating motion of water and adding oxygen to the systems. All this is controlled by meters ( I saw a whole series of Octopus ones to name one brand). Skimming was efficient I would have to say but not overdone and not as some suggest (and I am not saying they are wrong) to the maximum possible. The intent of all of this is to ensure that enough nutrient (natural nutrient) base is present in the water for both corals and fish to be able to obtain both foodstuff and elements.

Q: Are propagated corals better than wild ones for survival in the tank?

<Albert> According to Dana and John those who have bought propagated corals from Aquatic Wildlife have very high survival rates even in aquariums that may not be running at optimal conditions. Probed as to why that would be the answer was that the corals shipped were coming from an environment that was much closer to what would be found in an aquarium than corals coming from the ocean. They attribute the success rate and the survival rates to this to a great extent. The other imported factor is that what I saw were corals and fish that were not stressed at all that is important to consider too. In addition the shipping methods used ensure stress reduction as well. Even during the UPs strike they were able to get their shipments out using Fedex with whom they now ship exclusively. What I saw was a very well organized and very well managed facility with corals that you would drool over if you were there now believe me.

Q: What supplements do they use?

<Albert> Actually very few. They have been experimenting with some food stuff supplements but do not really feel that they are needed although they are still researching this. Kalkwasser is added to maintain calcium levels. Buffers are not necessary as the amount of rock in separate systems and the method used called reverse photoperiod ensures that the alk remains at desired levels and there has been no need to supplement with anything in particular to buffer the water What I did notice is that the systems where kept in an extremely clean condition and that all corals were placed in such a manner that all parts of the grow out tanks could be easily reached for siphoning out detritus if necessary. The water movement within the systems though was eliminating most of this and trapping whatever needed out of the system. asked about strontium and iodine and bromine etc and was told that these were only used on experimental levels and not as standard additives to the systems Dana is doing research on the real need for strontium (if it actually is necessary) and also on what the reasons for the addition of iodine are. He is not convinced that iodine supplementation is necessary beyond the need to use it to ensure that no disease enters the systems. All corals and all fish that come in are quarantined in a special area that is larger than most pet stores I know and is full of aquariums where these animals can be kept until everyone is sure that no disease is present. Water samples are taken and anylised to determine what is in the water. Mucus is taken and analyzed to ensure that the corals are fine and can safely be added to brood stock tanks when this is necessarry although very little brood stock is now being added because since the facility has been in operation for a few years, their brood stock is actually very well established.

Q: Are they going to start clam farming?

<Albert> At this point they are experimenting but have not decided as far as I know what to do in this respect. I saw several tanks with small clams in it that were being reared and grown to larger sizes. I think that is not a definite but would have to check again with Dana to be absolutely sure on this one.

Q: What other filtration was used beyond the scrubbers and skimmers?

<Albert> Interesting, In addition to the skimmers and "real turf" scrubbers, large vats are used that are full of live rock through which the water from every system circulates. The ratio of rock to water is far larger than what we use in our aquariums and the rock was of what I would call the FL variety not the coralline encrusted type, to provide large amounts of areas for biological filtration Between for instance two grow out vats there are two smaller vats (the 300 gallon type) through which the water needs to go before it can move from one grow out system to the next the amount of corals in the systems is just so large that tens of thousands of gallons of water comprise and make up the whole facility. I recently read about a reseller who is back on the circuit and selling frags who advertises his large new set up of ........ 800 gallons ....Gee AWC has more than that in just 3 of their many live rock tanks not to speak of the grow out ones.

Q: Was Ozone used on any of the tanks?

<Albert> No not at all and they are against using ozone and UV

Q: What salt do they use?

<Albert> Instant Ocean but they have used other salts as well but appear to be satisfied with this brand.

Q: How much water is changed?

<Albert> Dana and John are definitely advocates of changing water even in your home aquarium and they recommend a change of between 5 and 10 percent per month. Use the higher number in heavily loaded systems and the lower one in otehr situations. They change about 10 percent but this can vary depending on the quantity of corals they send out in any given month. For those in the ATL area Fish Store and More has some of their SPS corals. Right now they have over 35 species of SPS corals in various stages of growth with pigmentation that would make you salivate so nice they are and all of that is attributed to not overskimming, adding plankton (which they culture themselves in a separate room totally sealed off from the facility), adding KW, Having refugia, Using 6500 K lights and keeping the systems clean by making sure no detritus accumulates anywhere in the systems or on the corals AT

Q: Do you know how much ammonia is produced by coral?

<Albert> No but that would be very difficult to answer as it would depend on what coral and what size etc ...

Q: Are they propagating " live rock"?

<Albert> No they are not. They are into propagating SPS LPS corals and fishes. The SPS side is the largest one, the LPS one is in the growth stage adn the fish section is running extremely well as they have been doing that for years John Walch had a facility in Phoenix too where he was propagating corals but was focusing more on the fish there. That is the facility where the non-destructive plankton pumps were first set up BTW

Q: What is their water change/replacement procedure?

<Albert> The systems are set up in such a way that water can automatically be drained from any of the systems and replenished with aged water that is always available.

Q: Is the facility open to the public for tours?

<Albert> Yes and that is totally different from so many other facilities. They have nothing to hide and will show you the entire facility. Give them a call and tell them when you would like to come and they will gladly show you around both the retail shop, the ecoReef room, the grow-out area and even the experimental area believe it or not. I do not know of too many facilities that have such an open door policy, Most of the ones I know try to keep you out just in case you caught on to some of their methods I guess. here the policy is open door. You should see it it is really hard to describe the beauty of the frags with all kinds of colors that make what some of us have in our tanks shame. I have seem the greenest greens, the reddest reds and pinkiest pinks etc ... at that facility. note that they also propagate Leather corals (even the Yellow Tonga) and Mushrooms

Q: where is the facility located?

<Albert> 5200 North Lee Highway, Cleveland TN Phone 423 559 9000 fax 423 559 0540 They will soon have their own fully fledged web site as well.

Q: Can you give an example of how pigmentation can be manipulated by certain lighting?

Q: What type of lighting are they using on each tank, specifically, MH/Flourescent Supplement, and if so, what type of bulbs?

<Albert> Yes I can. The research that Dana is involved in is geared to finding out what sections of the PAR bring about what kind of colors What he has found so far is how to generate red and greens but he is still experimenting to confirm this before he releases the data but he has perfected lighting to the point where he can color a coral by providing that portion of the PAR that brings about a certain pigmentation color. The lighting used is all MH and is all 6500 K All lights are shielded for UV removal. Dana has found and this may come as a surprise to you that UV is actually not really necesary for coral growth and coral pigmentation, what it does is bring certain colors out better but that is about al. The same applies to O3 lights they are mostly in his opinion beneficial for aesthetic purposes but do not serve photosynthetic activity in the grow out type tank. Note the latter as that is imporatant what happens in nature is one thing what happens in shallow grow out tanks in closed sytems is totally different and what Dana and John are dealing with is just that: closed systems to grow corals that are just about tank acclimated and will therefore have a much better grow rate and survival rate than wild caught animals. No FL or VHO is used except over some of the fish tanks.

Q: If they can manipulate the color of the coral, do you have any guarantee that the color you order will stay that color?

<Albert> Yes if you use the same kind of light as they do that is what will happen and they will discuss at length with you what you need to do when you get corals. Interestingly enough DC Potts called them yesterday I think and spoke to both for nearly an hour explaining the whole procedures. Needless to say he was very impressed and he posted a message to that effect to our reefkeeping mailing list As long as you do what they do and there is no magic to what they do you can indeed achieve that.

Q: What are the research areas they are involved in?

<Albert> Right now more research in wavelengths for pigmentation also, nutrients required (they have a food that they use and have developped that both fish and corals really go after, they are experimenting with other ways in which to frag and see if there are simpler methods I was also told that research is being done in how temp affects growth and survival rates other areas include refining techiques for breeding fishes and so on.

Q: what fish do they breed?

<Albert> So many that it would be hard to list them all but clownfish of various kinds (including true perculas), Cardinals, gobies, and I am told that Dana is attempting to breed Butterflies and Angels right now and I actually saw the beginning of a set up to do so.

Q: Are these Ecko Systems expensive say for a 100 gal tank?

<Albert> Considering you get everyting you need including tank, stand, skimmer, lighting, pumps, and whatever else is needed to run the aquarium not really. IF you were to add up everything you spend on a 100 gallon tank and would add say a turf scrubber and a dump bucket and incorporte all of that in a really beautifully made package (the tank and the system) the price is is very reasonalbe and around 4400. That is not much in my opionion as I know many hobbyist who have spent quite a bit more on less than what they get in an ecoReef and are not even sure that what they have will actually work in the ecoReef everything is matched and has been refined over the years to work together to give you a beautiful looking tank. You should see the ecoReefs they have as display tanks (a 100, 2 200's and 2 walk around 400's) and you would need to sit down to take it all in. They are truly superb aquariums and the animals in the tank are really thriving and vibrant.

Q: How are the lights shielded?

<Albert> UV filtering plastic as PAR is defined as the wavelengths beteen 400 and 700 nm and that is all that is needed for coral growth and pigmentation as documented by Dana I was privy to seeing his notes and let me tell you there aer piles and piles of notebooks full of data that he has accumulated over the last two years testing and testing and testing more Nothing is left to chance at the facility, everything is monitored and the results analyzed. These guys work 14 to 16 hours days BTw

Q: are they trying to breed any crustaceans or any inverts other than cnidarians?

<Albert> I did not see any attempts at crustaceans other than shrimpI did not see any attempt at doing any breeding with anemones although I saw beautiful specimens of carpet anemones in clown fish breeding tanks. John is a firm believer that clowns breed better when in the presence of carpet anemones as opposed to other types. oh one interesting fact ... I saw several of the Indonesian Nudibranchs that eat flatworms the rusty brown kind some were actively feeding while others just passed the flatworms and we assumend that they had consumed enough for the day. In tanks were these experiments were being conducted you could see patches were all the flatworms had been eaten away. I do not know though whether they have enough of them in stock to sell you some.

Q: Given what you said earlier regarding the minimal amount of supplements they use, do you feel that the average reef keeper is "overdoing" supplementation?

<Albert> Considering that they have what I would call a low skimming rate and a real high biological filtration rate, there appears to be no need for supplements other than the water changes being performed and the elements added to the water from the animals in the refugia (btw the ecoReefs have them included). so we are dealing with a situation that is different from what many hobbyists do who overskim, run carbon, sometimes other compounds etc vs a system where nutrient availability is stressed but where nutrients must be seen in the form of beneficial nutrients not NO3 PO4 etc In aquariums we often seem to do the opposite. We skim every thing out and then start adding everything back. Perhaps another difference is that there are no live sand beds in any of the vats as they are traps for detritus and bacteria etc and are therefore not desirable. The only areas where sand is present is in the refugia. Live rock is what is used for filtration, low skimming, no additives., KW, regular water changes and the addition on a regular basis of plankton which they feel is very important and which has been stressed by certain authors for some time but that advice has not always been followed AT

Q: Can you give more information the food that you talked about earlier that the fish and corals love?

<Albert> Yes it is made up of shrimp, scallop, mussel meat, non oily fish meat to which algal material is added and all that is passed through a blender. The particle sizes are varied depending on what is being fed. For SPS corals the blending is for real fine, whereas for fish it is set for larger sizez it is adapted to the animals it is intended for. The only other thing that is added is a commercial vitamin source.

Q: what commercial vitamin source?

<Albert> I do not know whether I am allowed to give out the name but will check and if so will add it in the transcript.

Q: where can one purchase the UV shielding

<Albert> Any plastics place can sell you UV shielding acrylic

Q: what is a good species for a beginner to prop

<Albert> Probably one of the Acropora types, millepora would be a good one to begin with. I have posted the section on lighing of my two over one hour interviews with Dana to our web site http://www.athiel.com and will start posting the balance. I did not want to preempt this talk by publishing all the material in advance but now that the talk has taken place I have lots of material with recommendations for first timers and recs and you can check from time to time to see what is new in the AWC section that I have added. I have about 2 more hours of tape to transcribe !

Q: what is the price range for the acropora in the retail shop?

<Albert> I think it starts as low as around 10 dollars and up from there depending on what you buy but considering that if you follow the right procedures you will end up with a huge piece that you can then frag yourself that is really inexpensive