MACNA Summary and Discussion

Richard Knecht

September 19th, 1999 on #REEFS

The aim of this talk is let you know what went on at MACNA, then we will have a discussion on some of the issues/ideas raised. So there is no Q&A session, but rather a discussion once Rich is finished.

MACNA- what is it? MACNA is the Marine Aquarium Conference of North America. It is a great place to meet people in the hobby. It is a place for advanced marine aquarists and beginners to come together, share information, and also to learn a thing or two. There are booths set up with the newest reef technology. There are tanks full of corals, clams, and some fish for the participants to stare into.

First of all, let me say that MACNA was worth the $125 registration fee, which included a Saturday night banquet. I got to meet all types of people, from beginners to the likes of advanced reefers like Sprung, Knop, Borneman, and quite a few others. I got the chance to chat with them. I also learned that most are very willing to chat with even the newbie reefer. There were no "push offs" that I saw. This talk will go in to basics of what I saw. I did not attend all the talks however. Some simply did not interest me. Just an opinion.

All of the subjects were of some importance. There were various talks scheduled throughout the event. Speakers like Bingman, Harker, and Riddle. Their talks were both informative and interesting. Scott Michael presented a talk on reef fish. It was not only informative, but he added humor, which was welcomed with laughter. Some talks were aimed at the science and chemistry behind a reef.

Bill Addison talked about captive bred species and the future of marine fish propagation in the future. This is where our hobby is headed. We need to support aquaculture facilities as much as we can. One advantage a captive bred fish has over a wild caught fish is low stress. Captive bred fish are used to flake foods, etc... They do not need to become acclimated to "dead" food. Bill talked about the captive bred fish that are available and the ones in the future.

Richard Harker presented a talk on the "biotope aquarium". His idea was to create a reef tank as an actual reef zone. Not just stuffing different types of corals in a tank, but to actually create a true reef. Just keep the corals that would usually live amongst each other on a real reef. He showed pictures of actual reefs. It was interesting to see leather corals among acroporas. However, they coexisted fine. He showed how corals adapt to one another's presence. Branching corals had plating and encrusting corals between them. All in all, I though it was a great talk. It gets you thinking...does my reef present a natural place for my corals to live and grow? Hmmm.

Bob Stark of ESV spoke about "balanced reef aquaria". We all know how hard it is to find that fine line between success and failure. We know how easy things can go bad and how slow things go right. Bob described his methods and why he believed in them.

After the banquet on Saturday night, Burt Jones and Maurine Shimlock presented an awesome photo session. Their pictures not only showed the great diversity of life on the reef, but the animals who have mastered the art of camouflage. Did you know there is an octopus that can mimic flounder and it's surrounding in order to hide? They had great pictures of many different types of reef creatures. Their photography was outstanding. It was the perfect end to the banquet.
Dana Riddle and Andy Amussen presented a talk on lighting. They basically showed what type of light some of our corals actually need to survive. This talk could have gone on for hours. Lighting is a very hot topic these days.

There were also raffles to win various items. Items ranging from posters to whole tanks, complete with rock and sand! WOW! They raffled off a 90G AGA reef ready tank, complete with hood, stand, rock, sand, lighting, etc..., and the delivery was included! There were also rooms set up with display tanks full of corals. From soft to SPS and clams. All for sale of course. I have never seen such a selection. The list of vendors included: Reefers, Harbor Aquatics, Coral Farms, A Splash of Life, and Inland Aquatics. All had great booths. There were show "specials". Frankly there was quite a bit to look at.
You were also able to meet those vendors you talk to on the phone so often. People like Brian and JT from Reefers, Gary and Joy from Harbor Aquatics, Jason from Premium Aquatics, Bob Mankin from Advanced Reef Technologies and many others.

My favorite part however, is meeting fellow reefers. Both beginners and "experts" like me :). I met a lot of people from #reefs as well. That was fun. The most important thing was that I could talk reefs all day without a yawn. We also talked about non-reef items...some were very interesting:) I also stared into the displays with envy. I wanted everything.

The main thing is, there was something for everyone. No matter what your reef interest may be. I know I myself will return next year. I recommend it highly. There is no doubt you will learn something. I know I did.

To keep the discussion a little more ordered to begin with we will limit it to several people at a time. To do this it will require people to send a message to me letting me know that you have something to add or discuss. You will then be given "permission" to talk on the moderated channel. When things peter out with this, then the channel will be unmoderated and all can talk then.

Well,thanks for coming to the talk. I can try and answer questions if you have any. Others who were there are welcome to add their comments.

<Capn> Rich mentioned the mimic octopus earlier. It actually can imitate several animals besides just flounder for a full article see: http://www.asiandiver.com/themagazine/marinelife/mimicoct.html

<DBW> OK, so what do people think about what Dana Riddle had to say, in suggesting the usage of eggcrate to direct lighting into the reef tank, and keep it away from the sides of the tank?
<RichK> well DBW, the eggcrate discussion was aimed at mostly VHOs since eggcrate is designed to focus fluorescent lighting and there is a top and bottom
<liztmap> has anyone tried that?
<RichK> I haven't, no
<DBW> Did he present any data or anything to back it up at all? Does it make much of a difference?
<BlackBeard> that?s interesting
<RichK> the one thing he did say was that it helped the light stay focused into the tank
<BlackBeard> can u elucidate rich?
<liztmap> mention the fat side & thin side, rich...
<RichK> not shine around the rim (for those of us with suspended hoods)
<cw> The bulbs have to be a certain distance from the eggcrate, I remember that
<RichK> right
<DBW> Well, eggcrate does a very good job of doing that, you simply have to look at a fluoro lighting fitting that uses it and the light does get well focused.
<RichK> within 2-3"
<HAaZzz> so what does that DO for you?
<DBW> What would be interesting is if the light is all directed down, and how much is lost due to it being in place in front of the light, it is absorbing and reflecting some of the light.
<DeadCats> amazing concept, using eggcrating for its intended use ;)
<BlackBeard> so basically it "spots" the flooding of VHO`S?

<Capn> Was there any discussion as to the prevention of collecting, specifically in Fiji?
<RichK> Capn, yes there was a discussion about the Fiji predicament
<RichK> I, unfortunately did not attend that
<Capn> What was the general thought there Rich?
<cw> I went to the Walt smith thing
<RichK> what did he say cw?
<cw> He showed a video
<cw> and talked about the Fiji government
<cw> They were concerned about how much they are taking, and if they employ Fiji?s people or not
<Capn> Is it true that there is only a matter of time before Fiji rock will not be available to the U.S.?
<cw> maybe
<Johnpaul> that would suck big time
<RichK> Johnpaul, it would just show the need for an aquaculture facility in the pacific
<Capn> I would think that Riddle, as an aquaculturist would have addressed this.
<DBW> What was raised at that talk was more to do with the Fiji government wasn't it? Not from the US side of things, at which there are different movements being made to control coral imports, no?
<RichK> right dbw
<RichK> the rock problem is not with our gov't, it is within the Fiji gov't
<cw> They can only collect 1/1000th from any site,
<RichK> the next few years will prove to be interesting
<DBW> That is Fiji regulations or something cw?
<normd> I understand that the US has an effort going as well for all collection?
<cw> I think so,
<RichK> yes
<RichK> the US gov't is trying to control the amount of coral we import
<cw> it?s fiji makin all the fuss
<RichK> we need to support aquaculture

<Capn> Is MACNA and MACO at all affiliated?
<DBW> No, MACO is a group of a couple of volunteers that got together to give another source of information, fill a niche. Nothing what so ever to do with MACNA.

<david_28> Rich, Sanjay mentioned that there is a 12k bulb at Macna. Did you see it?
<RichK> yes
<cw> The 12 k is awesome
<RichK> awesome...hmmm
<david_28> Who makes it?
<RichK> strong word
<cw> for the color that is
<DBW> In what way? Color rendition? Price?
<RichK> I think it is "different"
<RichK> color is a touch bluer than a 10KK
<cw> Its very icy blue
<RichK> yeah
<Vee1> what wattage?
<david_28> Aqualine Bushke?
<cw> I think, 175 250, and 400
<cw> Its made for PFO lighting
<Vee1> any idea how much $ they are?
<RichK> I think I can find a picture
<DBW> How does it compare to the 20,000K color? Did they have them side-by-side?
<cw> no idea on price yet
<cw> they had a 10K ab and a 12k pfo, the 10k looked yellow
<RichK> http://www.harboraquatics.com/images/macna/richK_09e.jpg
<RichK> go there
<MegaWAy> those pfo's looked higher than 12k at wmc
<RichK> that is the color of a 12KK
<MegaWAy> looks more like 20k
<RichK> the 10KK is on the left (yellowish) and the 12KK on the right (blue)
<cw> those are 175's right ?
<RichK> it did have a pleasing color
<HAaZzz> richk: any idea of the life expectancy of the bulb tho?
<HAaZzz> before it shifts
<RichK> no
<RichK> the PFO guy was there
<Vee1> gary, andy idea how much $ the 12ks will be?
<RichK> and he said bulb life has not been tested
<RichK> the bulbs are very new
<hmmm> but one is burning right now, we'll see in a few months
<RichK> I would guess 12 months, like a 10KK
<david_28> Is the bulb specifically made for reefs or was it designed for some other purpose?
<MegaWAy> are they selling them yet?
<RichK> reefs
<RichK> PFO set the specs and had the bulb made
<HAaZzz> well 10kk started petering out around 8months with me, noticeable shifting
<cw> PFo told me the would be close in price to a 10k german
<Rod> me too hazzz
<RichK> a great effort IMO
<HAaZzz> rod: ya
<HAaZzz> but those 12kk nice, and with some actinics, MAD blue..
<hmmm> bb, that's blue http://www.harboraquatics.com/coralfarm/farm04.jpg
<RichK> I do still prefer the 400w 6500s
<HAaZzz> but didn?t someone mention that acros dont color up under 10kk, what about 12kk or 20kk wouldnt it be even worse?
<RichK> I have seen purple acros go brown under 10KKs
<hmmm> hazzz, depends on par values
<Rod> and visa sersa
<RichK> I traded frags with a couple 10KK owners
<HAaZzz> richk: exactly what happened to that purple frag you gave me.
<HAaZzz> is brown, growing like MAD but brown
<DBW> Color temperature of the lights and color of the Acropora are not directly linked like that. Got more to do with intensity, feeding, alkalinity etc.
<RichK> have a montipora that is purple under my 6500s
<cw> Dana riddle did also mention that he restates his theory on coral color,
<RichK> it is now brown under their 10KKs
<hmmm> put in under a 400 watt 10,000k ;)
<RichK> they did
<RichK> brown
<DBW> cw: how is that? What did he change?
<HAaZzz> hmm: it is now right under a 400w 10kk bulb in tbo's tank
<HAaZzz> still brown

<Capn> Gary: Perhaps you can enlighten us on this "Fiji rock ban" rumor
<barmacy> the ban is off until the coral reef task force meets
<hmmm> capn, it has been stopped about 5 times in the last 2 years, anybody notice ;)
<barmacy> so we have until november
<barmacy> I now believe that Walt was just spouting
<Capn> Did Riddle specifically talk about how he aquacultures such a vast array of corals?
<cw> he was saying that alkalinity was the reason for color
<cw> but he restates it to be light intensity

<DBW> anything of noteworthy to come out of Richard Harker's talk with the "biotypes"?
<barmacy> no
<RichK> I liked that talk
<RichK> actually
<cw> I fell asleep
<barmacy> :)
<cw> sorry
<barmacy> I went to the MAC meeting
<DBW> what did you like about it Rich?
<RichK> I liked the way he showed how leathers were growing next to acros...
<RichK> he made a decent point
<RichK> it also opened my eyes with coral placement
<HAaZzz> richk: yeah, what?s the big revelation?
<bennym> Rich, is it possible to actually do that in a tank
<RichK> like, you can have branching acro placed within the reef, and have plating/encrusting acros between them
<bennym> acros next to leathers? or just in nature?
<DBW> The branching Acropora lets the light through to the plating/encrusting corals then?
<RichK> in reef tanks too
<RichK> I have a sarcophyton right next to a few acros
<RichK> now, there is some aggression, but the corals "respect" their space
<BlackBeard> maybe if you had a light conveyor
<barmacy> yeah and in nature they grow in clusters too... big clusters from what I understand
<BlackBeard> what about shading?
<MegaWAy> I'm starting to have shade problems
<RichK> that was another interesting thing...
<DBW> you would always expect there to be some competition for space. Just need to find those that will exist together without fighting over it too much.
<bennym> any special "acclimatizing" needed to keep together?
<RichK> he showed how acros in nature have no dead tissue at the base like they do in some of our tanks
<RichK> maybe because of feeding/plankton populations
<MegaWAy> I had a monti growing over a purple acro
<MegaWAy> the monti is gone now
<MegaWAy> RichK you seen my nana, no base die off yet
<MegaWAy> and that sucker is totally shaded
<RichK> I saw that
<MegaWAy> the inside of the head has no die off either
<cw> oh yea, something else, DTS phytoplankton is going to be adding a third strand of phytoplankton to his concoction
<RichK> I have a lot of acros with no base die off
<MegaWAy> and its super packed growth
<RichK> but he showed acros that were DARK at the bases
<RichK> lots of tissue
<HAaZzz> reef: define "very little"
<DBW> If you are getting die off at that base of your Acropora, then something is wrong. Must be getting heaps of food, may be transporting of food from the "tips" of the colony? Anyone know how well Acropora share nutrients etc with the rest of the colony?

<DBW> OK, what about Bob Stark's talk. Any points in there to recall?
<barmacy> bob's comparison of photoperiod to dissolved o2 was very interesting
<barmacy> the whole balance thing is killer :)
<RichK> yeah it was todd
<david_28> Can you guys expand?
<DBW> Did he have any interesting "tips" or don't dos sort of things?
<barmacy> what he was doing was comparing the amount of light used during the "day"
<DBW> May be a run down on what the comparison of O2 versus light said.
<barmacy> to the amount of oxygen consumed at the end of the dark period
<barmacy> no filters no nothing
<barmacy> awesome
<barmacy> only powerheads were running the tank
<BlackNet> hey barmacy
<BlackNet> how was work?
<barmacy> it was truly zen reefkeeping
<DBW> Yeah, what did it say? Come on Todd, you can't tease us like that.... ;-)
<barmacy> hold yer horses there dbw :)
<barmacy> what bob was doing was starting a system with 2 factors in mind
<barmacy> photoperiod vs oxygen consumption
<barmacy> and biological filtration
<barmacy> the photoperiod controls the amount of photosynthesis, ergo the amount of do2 in the system without any skimmer or mechanical agitation
<barmacy> so he had to find the sweet spot as algaes inhabited the system
<DBW> That sounds interesting Todd. Did he have some good data showing the sort of effect that resulted?
<barmacy> heh data? wth to you think lol :)
<barmacy> his data was "it works"
<barmacy> which makes me want to play with it very very much :)
<BlackBeard> wtf`s do2? barm?
<DBW> What, no O2 level data or anything like that? If so then crap, poor talk.
<barmacy> dissolved oxygen
<barmacy> he mentioned values, but I don't recall any graphs
<barmacy> I think he was trying to portray the "essence of the idea" :)

<DBW> What about Bill Addeson's talk? On captive raised stock etc.
* barmacy yawned
<barmacy> I think bill signed up to do it before the hurricane and he's lost a bit of his wind
<barmacy> he talked like a broken man
<RichK> Bill basically was talking about the many species of fish that are now captively bred
<barmacy> quite a shame, too
<RichK> something we need to support
<wade> RichK: Any mention of gobies?
<RichK> he mentioned basslets
<DBW> Is there some interesting fish that he pointed out they are now breeding?
<wade> or mention of rearing foods?
<DBW> What I can tell you is that in Taiwan they are now captive breeding angels.
<Phishmon> Marineland is doing 2 types of angelfish also
<DBW> These include Halfmoon, Blue Line and Asfur angels. They raise them in batches of around 400 per pen.
<RichK> yes, flame angels and hippo tangs are now being successfully bred
<RichK> tangs...
<Phishmon> but no one is supposed to know that ;)
<barmacy> breeding or isolating the larvae?
<DBW> What sort of tangs are they raising now?
<RichK> right now, the hippo tang
<RichK> Harbor had a bunch of the babies
<DBW> These angels I am talking about are bred. They had some in a swimming pool for about 6 months, came back it was filled with thousands of angels, they just went nuts in there.
<RichK> they were feeding like mad in the holding tanks
<wade> anyone ever been to harbor aquatics and seen the setups?
<MickAv8r> ummm they aren't TR hippo tangs
<DBW> Bill just talked about fish, not corals Rich?
<MickAv8r> those are wild caught larvae that they are raising to salable size, they aren't breeding in peoples tanks
<barmacy> bill freaking asked whether fish or corals were easier to propagate! :)
<BlackBeard> are harbors coral beds in the ocean like oysters?
<DBW> Can you chop a fish in half like corals? ;-)
<RichK> yes
<RichK> you can now frag fish
<Phishmon> lol
<wade> lol
<RichK> just clone a fin
<MickAv8r> lol
<barmacy> actually tho... in an after thought...
<Phishmon> don't tell me that
<wade> your sushi suddenly jumps up and bites you!
<RichK> clams too
<barmacy> he worded it as "which are easier to breed"
<barmacy> which.. well.. fish are :)
<RichK> true
<DBW> Yes, they certainly are at the moment Todd. Need to really work on that one.
<DBW> Can propagate the corals nice and easily now, well some of the families anyway.
<barmacy> yeah.. gotta work on that lps one too

<RichK> the one thing though, with all the talks going on...
<RichK> you were able to MEET people
<RichK> people who's books you read
<RichK> people here...
<RichK> sharing ideas, practices
<cw> and the dude from fantasy island was there
<RichK> heh
<Rod> small turnout in louisville tho
<DBW> Did you get his autograph cw? ;-)
<RichK> it is great to put a face on people who you normally type to
<david_28> Which dude, tattooo?
<RichK> yeah
<ReefShark> tatoo killed himself
<RichK> heh

<DBW> OK, does anyone else have something they wish to discuss about MACNA? Todd, do you have something you think should be talked about?
<barmacy> oh... and I should mention that someone brought the most gawd awful piece of hardware I?ve ever seen
<BlackNet> why did he do that?
<RichK> uh oh
<RichK> the wheel
<barmacy> did we go through the MAC talk?
<beak> did anyone catch Morgan?s speeches on ats
<DBW> No, that one was not raised yet.
<RichK> no todd
<david_28> Barmacy, what was it?
<RichK> go for it todd
<barmacy> well it needs brought up
<DBW> What pieces of hardware was that Todd?
<RichK> wait..MAC is better
<RichK> I forgot that one
<barmacy> first of all, let me give them a shameless plug by having you go to www.aquariumcouncil.org
<RichK> how, I don't know
<barmacy> the website will do the org much more justice explaining itself than I can
<barmacy> what the mac is... its the marine aquarium council
<barmacy> they are trying to clean up the mess this industry is in
<VLE> Did anyone go to Yoshi Mizuno's talk? I heard that they are breeding many different marine fishes in Japan.
<DBW> Was the talk simply a presentation to everyone what MAC was and what they are attempting to do?
<barmacy> as well, keep the suppliers and collectors that are ethical supplied with the business
<Phishmon> no doubt
<beak> todd- will it really fly
<barmacy> actually, it was supposed to... turned into an lfs owner bitchin session :/
<barmacy> beak: if I can help it :)
<barmacy> the only problem I see with the mac is that it is ethic driven, instead of money driven
<beak> I hope so I wanted to go but as a hobbyist I did not think there was a place there me
<barmacy> it's like communism is great on paper, but sucks in reality
<barmacy> you know what I mean?
<BlackNet> uh no ;)
<barmacy> to the mac meeting beak?
<DBW> Are they not trying to tie in some ecomonics into the whole equation though?
<beak> yep
<barmacy> you should have.. it was interesting
<BlackBeard> the human race is not good enough for communism barm
<beak> I sort of thought it to be
<barmacy> the economics they are trying to have it that they are the ultimate competitor
<barmacy> even tho they make little money off it
<beak> todd- you didn't ck out morgan's talks on ats
<DBW> Where is MAC aiming for now then?
<barmacy> that collectors, exporters, importers, wholesalers, lfs and even the consumer are educated about what they are doing with all these animals
<beak> I caught all his talks and I think I will set up my next tank
<Phishmon> are they the same folks that were gonna sue other wholesalers Etc
<barmacy> phish: not sure, but change the situation where x business is watching y's business so they both don't get busted...
<barmacy> which is the opposite of how it should be
<beak> todd who will enforce this mac rules
<Phishmon> we need a checks and balances kinda deal
<RichK> true
<barmacy> beak: hopefully.... heh... this is the problem
<Phishmon> like our wholesaler he is one anal dude if you don't know what you are doing
<beak> will everybody just do it out of need to change or will it be business as usual
* Phishmon wants to be the first "reef" cop
<Phishmon> as long as I get a cool hat ;)
<barmacy> implementation of the MAC is going to suck... that is why they need as many people's opinions and ideas as possible right now
<barmacy> they have a sign up on the website... I would fill that out.. it only takes a minute
<beak> it sounds good on paper but.......
<barmacy> you oz-landers should be proud of yourselves... au is pretty much the model for how this will work
<RichK> todd, the main problem is that some lfs are not in it for the animals we keep
<RichK> they want the fast buck
<Phishmon> yup they need to go rich
<RichK> they don't care if a fish/coral dies or not
<barmacy> yes... but if on each pack of brine, each bag of salt it says
<RichK> they actually prefer if it does
<DBW> Well Todd, reason that is because the market is so small, and the resource is so large.
<RichK> so you get to go back and buy another
<beak> that is the only thing they know the fast buck
* Phishmon hopes his store kills those type folks here ;)
<barmacy> here's how it should be
<RichK> that is the part of this hobby that need help
<DBW> If exporting to the US was initially allowed 30 years ago things would be very different.
<DBW> Only reason that held is because of our strict laws in those respect.
<MickAv8r> MAC sounds a lot like AMDA but on a multi faceted level, the problem is gonna be exactly like AMDA, lotta talk little action, unless it actually employs people most of these types of organizations accomplish little no matter how good the intentions
<barmacy> well mick why don't you just pass that sentiment along... see that's what I?m saying.. go to the website and get on board
<RichK> I would personally love to see MAC happen
<BlackBeard> don?t forget the GBR brings in 1.5 bill/year as it is
<BlackBeard> did what?
<DBW> That is right Todd, do something yourselves :-).
<MickAv8r> we all would, AMDA too, AMDA is all but useless without enforcement, and they've all but given up on even attempting that
<Phishmon> is the decorative industry being affected also
* Phishmon hopes so they go through a lot of dead heads
* barmacy quitchorbitchin and get out there! :) lol
<DBW> Everyone can do something, have some impact. Complaining etc about something gets everything nowhere.
<barmacy> exactly dbw
<hmmm> Mick, the idea is to educate the consumer, then enforcement would be irrelevant
<barmacy> gbr also has a league that is working quite well
<hmmm> plus the MAC guidlines will probably end up as law at some point in time
<DBW> That would be great Gary, but how do you educate the majority of where LFS money goes?
<barmacy> one of the guys involved was at the meeting... I?ll be danggum if I could remember his name
<barmacy> I don't understand Dallas?
<Phishmon> ditto
<RichK> hmmm, that would be fine with me
<MickAv8r> correct, I'm not talking about enforcement in the MAC sense, I'm talking about it in the AMDA sense, AMDA has many LFS's and ALL of the distributors that are members that don't abide by 90% of the AMDA standards
<barmacy> where the money from livestock goes?
<barmacy> amda has a big problem.. it's not global
<DBW> Well Todd, how do you get that sort of education to where the almighty dollar is coming from? that is what they are talking about, no? Educating those with the money to spend etc.
<Phishmon> still lost me Dallas
<Phishmon> you talking about educating a lFS
<barmacy> ahh... that should be up to the lfs that should have educated itself, which bought from the wholesaler or transhipper who educated themselves... etc
<MickAv8r> dbw: that?s the last in the line, the LFS vs. customer relationship
<barmacy> it goes all the way back to ocean thousands of miles away
<barmacy> that's where it begins
<Phishmon> yup
<barmacy> right mick.. the amda is also in cohertz with mac I might also mention
<DBW> Actually, I am talking about educating the consumer, or that is what I thought Gary was pointing to.
<barmacy> they were enemies at first, but that's been cleared up
<MickAv8r> and you have to hope that if there is no demand for certain things the collectors will stop collecting, but 99% of the LFS in this country still stock goniopora for instance
<Phishmon> ahh I educate my customers if I don't think you can handle it you don't get to buy it
<barmacy> well... I think that the good lfs out there do attempt to educate the consumer
<Phishmon> lost sale but a saved life and hopefully a smarter hobbyist
<RichK> some do that todd
<BlackBeard> yeah, here too mick :-(
<barmacy> exactly rich... and what would rock is that they couldn't go buy it somewhere else :)
<RichK> but people get offended
<MickAv8r> I know bar, I am not anti MAC or AMDA I'm just saying these are issues that must be solved in order to be effective
<Phishmon> yup todd
<barmacy> they don't want to learn, they're not going to shut down the supply line
<Phishmon> that would be nice :)
<Phishmon> teach them and they will come kinda deal
<barmacy> if we can have a few examples of who is not greedy in this business who are flourishing...
<barmacy> then that will be who catches the reef task force's attention
<barmacy> the active model
<Phishmon> then we would be on the right track
<Phishmon> an educated LFS would be the hub of the hobby in your area
<MickAv8r> true, and most of the more educated hobbyists will listen to you and purchase something they can handle or wait, but I have found quite a few who are ummm well lets just say I'd be surprised if they have their GED's who look at you with a dumb expression and then go to another irresponsible LFS and buy what they can't have, like the Haddoni for their 20H with eclipse hood
<RichK> I have a few words from Bob Mankin...
<Phishmon> I have a library in mine come on in sit down and read a few books on me
<RichK> he wanted to contribute, but was on his way out
<Phishmon> the anti-LFS attitude needs to start at the LFS
<MickAv8r> or you just have the arrogant SOB with lots of money who will buy what he wants
<barmacy> but that's what this is trying to stop mick... the businesses that don't follow ethics get beat out because over time, or by enforcement, each individual in the hobby has to educate themselves either actively or passively
<Phishmon> more education less screwing the client
<RichK> <bobm> The classification of Scleractinia as CITIES App II was more of a kneejerk reaction 20 years ago
<RichK> <bobm> Not because it was actually considered endangered.
<RichK> <bobm> Something I read in a draft of a forthcoming paper.
<beak> how many lfs want to be educated and then do what mac wants
<BlackNet> hmm
<DBW> That is a big problem Mick, so how can you then solve that one?
<barmacy> and there won't e enough money to keep them alive
<Phishmon> Beak I do and will
<RichK> <bobm> At the time elephant protection was in the limelight(due to the ivory issue)
<RichK> <bobm> and the treaty members were very overprotective at the time.
<RichK> <bobm> Almost ZERO debate on the subject of classifying corals occurred before the resolution was passed.
<DBW> That will take time Todd. Great ideal, not sure if it will work that way.
<Phishmon> Dallas if it doesn?t then bye bye hobby
<barmacy> oh I agree.. that's why it need participation NOW
<RichK> <bobm> And it was supposed to be reviewed at a later date(which so far has not occurred)
<beak> I am glad but u go out in the real world and how many like u I wish there were more
<RichK> <bobm> More details on this later when time allows and after I converse further with the author.
<barmacy> demand it with your dollar beak
<Phishmon> we're working on that beak we are
<DBW> Well Rich, that is right. And pessimistically I think that is what is going to happen to you guys there in the US.
<Phishmon> ditto todd
<RichK> It is the ONLY time in the CITIES treaty history that such a wide classification has been added(ie. Scleractinia)
<RichK> <bobm> Without much scientific data presented to support the idea, I might add.
<Phishmon> Dallas I agree
<beak> todd u are 60 mi from me nearest is 30mi
<barmacy> nearest lfs?
<beak> yep
<Phishmon> drive the 60 its worth it
<barmacy> well that's one person in the pool to demand
<DBW> There is just not strong enough forces working at the moment, which have to be economic, to drive things to where they "should" be in terms of long term sustainability of the hobby.
<beak> I can't always get the time
<Phishmon> Dallas true
<barmacy> you have to consider the drop of water at the top of the mountain
<Phishmon> it?s a tough road
<MickAv8r> I drove 250 round trip to check out Paragon last week lol and I AM an LFS lol
<Phishmon> but I need a hobby so I am gonna try to change things
<Phishmon> lol Mick
<barmacy> and all the exporters and transhippers that recently got nailed, and all the cites that were held up should or could be a marker
<Phishmon> yup
<barmacy> if Walt's little ditty on Fiji getting shut down could have any bit of good... at least it caused some alarm...
<barmacy> maybe that's what he was after by saying all that stuff
<barmacy> name one list where that hasn't popped up this week ;)
<Phishmon> that is one way to get attention in this hobby
<Phishmon> cut o a reefer off from his rock supply
* barmacy winks and says: "I think we gotter licked boys"
<DBW> True Todd. I think you do need something major to happen to stir some people up. I think Fiji being shut down from exports would do the hobby a world of good, in the US anyway.
<barmacy> yes... no one gets cheap rock lol
<DBW> No that Todd, make people realize this is serious, not just a threat and it will impact the availability of things.
<beak> I think that shut down is just like opec drive those prices up
<barmacy> I agree Dallas
<barmacy> beak: I make the same margin... do you wanna pay $6 a lb or $14?
<Phishmon> lol todd
<Phishmon> same here
<beak> if is good I will pay 14 for it
<Phishmon> you?re kidding I got some good rock then ;)
<Phishmon> stores here charge 14 for bleached tonga
<barmacy> lol... I?ve got some killer rock for $6 ;) lol
<Phishmon> Sssssspt hey kid come over here
<Tang> you can buy my rocks with xenia, green star polyps and mushrooms on the same rock for $15/lb
<Phishmon> want some cheap rock ;)
<Tang> better watch it phish..I think the fbi looks for channels where guys sell 'cheap rock'
<Phishmon> I did sell some for 11$ a pound once but that was 3 year old fully encrusted rock
<Phishmon> instant reef
<Phishmon> I sell them some too tang ;)

Thank you for a great talk Rich and to everyone else who participated!


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