William Horst
Mangroves
March 15, 1998

Welcome to the #Reefs chat on Mangroves. My name is William Horst and I am the president of the Eastern PA Reef Club. This chat will be mostly an introduction on how and why to use Mangroves. Most of this chat can be referenced from the Eastern PA Reef Club's Newsletter articles found at www.eparc.com

Why would you chose to use Mangroves?

If you would like a more natural approach to filtration, Mangroves could be the answer you are looking for.

What do Mangroves Do?

Mangroves uptake Nitrates, Phosphates, and other nutrients into its root structure.

Okay now that I have told you why to use Mangroves you are probably asking yourself, if there is any data to back these claims up?

There has been several studies done on this topic. Albert Thiel has spent alot of time collecting data from Mangrove test tanks. I have also done some research on the Mangroves in my system.

Both of our research has shown a decrease in Nitrates, and Phosphates. The Nitrates in my system were at 6-8 ppm. After 1 week after the Mangroves were introduced the Nitrates dropped to .2 ppm. This Nitrate level has been consistent ever since.

All of this is great, but I am still skeptical.

My answer would be, there are always doubts when it comes to new discoveries in this hobby. This is not a new concept. Many people use Macro Algae in their tank to produce similar results, thus the Macro algae uptakes the nutrients and the Macro Algae grows.

I think I am going to try out the Mangroves. How do I set them up in my system?

You will need the following: A sump (not necessary but helps), Mangrove Pods (1 Mangrove per 15 Gallons), Grow Lights (a minimum of 2 20W Plant lights).

What about the MUD?

Mangroves are normally floated, via Styrofoam until proper roots develop.

I will be setting the MUD up in my sump this coming week. The MUD is not necessary, but it will help create a more natural filtering system. It is a place for small organisms to filter out nutrients from the water.

I will be creating a natural refugia consisting of Mangroves, MUD, and Sponges. There will be a great article on this type setup by Ian McDonald in the March issue of the EPARC Newsletter

Now that I know why and how to use Mangroves, how do I buy them?

You can purchase Mangrove Pods from Albert Thiel (www.athiel.com), GARF (www.garf.org), and through your local plant green house. They will be much cheaper if you can find them locally.

Make sure you buy the Mangroves Pod(s) with good root structure. These Mangroves will be dormant until they adapt to your system. During this time you will be anxious to see things happen, but please be patient.

If I buy Mangrove Pod(s) with little root growth will they grow?

Yes, most Mangrove Pod(s) will grow, but it does take time. I have done some research on Mangrove root growth rates and this is shown in chart format in the February issue of the EPARC Newsletter.

There is so much more to talk about, but we will start into the Questions and Answers part of this talk. Feel free to ask questions, and be sure to reference the many articles on the Eastern PA Reef Club web site at: www.eparc.com

Q: What is the optimum water flow rate through a mangrove bed (loosely)?

I have the water flow into my sump at a medium flow. What is a medium flow? I would define this as less then a normal flow in a sump. 1/2 - 3/4

Q: What is the optimum substrate for mangroves?

This would be a MUD type style Refugia. This provides a place where the root structures to take hold. It also provides micro organisims a place to be established.

Q: How are the organisms in MUD different from those in live sand?

I can not completly answer that since I am not an expert on differnt types of substrates. I would believe the MUD is better since it is denser.

Q: If shipping mangroves, how long can they survive out of water?

When shipping any kind of Reef Organism I would suggest Next Day air.

Q: How much room do the mangroves need to grow properly?

Is this height or surface space? Before the roots really start to grow I would suggest at least 2" around the Mangrove. You will need to make sure the Mangrove is not too close to the light source. You can put your hand near the Mangrove Pod. If it is warm, the Mangrove is too close to the light.

Why would I want an estuarine tree growing in my reef tank ?

Like I said in the Talk, this is a more "Natural" method of reef keeping. I want my reef system to be as close as the real reef.

Q: Are special fertilizers needed?

They can be used to "jump Start" mangroves. One word of caution: They will increase the nutrients that will make the mangroves grow but at the same time cause micro algae to start growing. I would not suggest it unless the Mangrove pods are not growing very well.

Q: 1) Whats the difference between MUD and mud? 2) What exactly is MUD? 3) OK, what the heck is MUD, as opposed to say "mud", or even dirt?

As far as I know MUD is found in the same areas where Mangroves are found. This is not like normal "mud" found in your back yard. Albert could give a better explanation then I could, I am sure.

Q: How large do the root structures grow? Will they interfere with pumps if they are in the same sump?

This is why someone should set the sump as a refugia. This regugia would have a divider dividing the sump. The MUD would be on the one side of the divider and the pump would be on the other side. the roots will take time to grow, so this is something you should not have to worry about right away

Q: Do you run the grow-lights for the mangroves during the day or at night? What light cycle do you recommend for mangroves?

I run the (2) 20W grow lights during the same cycle as my Reef Lights.

Q: With a plenum, will the roots be effective on extracting the waste stored in the plenum?

I can only speculate since I have not done any research on that subject. The Mangroves will still remove nutrients, so it is still a "good thing"

Q: How much light is needed for the mangrove to flourish,would the overflow of light from the main tank into the sump be enough?

I would say no it would not be enough. You need proper light for the Mangrove Pod(s) to grow. Just like a coral, you need light. For the cost of (2) 20W grow lights, $30 I would not try it.

Q: Why do you keep refering to a mangrove as a reef organism, I have not seen one on a reef or in any pictures of reefs?

You can see many pictures of Mangroves being used in "The Reef Aquarium". This is not a big discovery. Mangroves have been used for years. It is just now a "craze". Finally research is being done that we can prove what Mangroves can do. If you want to see Mangroves close to home, look in Florida.

Q: What it the benefit of using iron additives ?

I dose Iron on a regular basis. This will aid in Magrove root growth rates, just like it does for Macro algae. I Feel it is important to does Iron when using Mangroves. Root growth is the key and that is why Iron is important

Q: My local greenhouse has 4-5 different types of mangroves...what kind do I want? Which mangrove works best red white black????

Most of the Mangroves that are used/researched are Red Mangroves. I know that Tim W. was also using some white mangroves in his system. I would suggest the Red.

Q: Have you seen any effect on pH from mangroves?

I have measured the PH and have not seen any changes. Kalkwasser is dosed via a dosing pump nightly. The PH is at 8.3

Q: What is wrong with "normal" flow in your sump? How does it affect the mangroves?

I feel that using an overflow box at the full rate is too fast for the Mangroves. If you need/want the full rate then just modify the partiyion that seperates the Mangroves and the pump. It is important to do some Disolved Oxygen Testing on a regular basis.

Q: Since Mangroves are found in direct relation with some fresh water run off, is it necessary to have some freshwater mixed occasionally to have long term success with these plants....Some brackish water on occasion?

Albert may be able to answer that last question about the brakish conditions. I have not seen any data on that question

Q: 1)You said earlier that the shoots may be dormant due to the accumulation to the new tank, how long (approx) does it tank for them to start growing again? 2) I read about aclimating mangroves someplace, how do I do it, like I would a fish or invert?

That is the most important question I have seen so far. In the dormant state the Mangrove Pod will turn brown and hard. No growth will develop in this stage. It may takes WEEKS for the Mangrove to recove and start to grow. When growth does occur you will see pink colored roots develop. I have done some root growth measurement testing that can be found in the EPARC Newsletter (www.eaprc.com)

Q: I have not ever seen mangroves before - How do I know if they are doing well?

That relates mostly to the answer above. You want GOOD root structure. If the Mangrove is doing well in your system, you will see pink colored roots growing

Q: 1) I am surrounded by reefs and they don't have mangroves on them? 2) Why do you refer to mangrooves as a reef organisms when in the wild, they do not occur on true reefs?

I refer to everything as an organism. We are organisms.. I am not an Mangrove expert. I am just trying to share my knowledge and research that I have done on my own system. This is all about helping others take care of thier reef systems better and acquire better growth rates of corals.

Q: Isn't this just an Adley type system using mangroves instead of algae?

Like I said this is not a new concept. When you look back in "The Reef Aquarium" you will see one of Charle's tanks with a mangrove growing out the top of the tank. I believe that when Mangroves are used in a Refugia (Swamp Refugia as Ian puts it) they have multiple benefits that can be gained.

Q: 1) Should a skimmer be used in addition? 2) Would it be possible to use only mangroves (1 per 15gal, like you said) and remove the skimmer from a tank?

Great Question and I might be stoned after I answer this one. I have removed the skimmer from my 55 gallon Reef System after 1 week of using the mangroves. The Mangroves are doing a great job of removing nutrients from the water. Can the skimmer be removed? Yes Can I use the skimmer and the Mangroves? Yes This is not a clear cut Flowchart on how you must use Mangroves. Each Reef System is different and that is why we must use our researched judgement in making the decision

Q: If one adds iron, will mangrove out compete marco algae's rate of iron absorbation?

I currently do not have any Macro algae but I will be adding some in the Refugia. You would have to change the dosage of the Iron, but this should be sufficient.

Q: Are there other "plants" that perform similar function to Mangroves?

I beleive there are some similar. As I said Macro Algaes do similar functions but Mangroves are more efficiant. Albert has done alot of research and this can be found at www.athiel.com The mangroves do work. When used in combination this provides a more complete system

Q: How many mangroves per tank volume is suffcient?

1 Mangrove Pod per 15 gallons should be enough. It is more important the quality of the mangrove not the quanity. Like I said they do go Dormant at first

Q: What is the optimum depth of sand that should be used for the mangrove roots?

2-4 inches should be fine. The Mangrove roots will spread across the bottom of the sump

Q: After the mangroves go dormant (I have one that is brown and hard and several on the way) will they swell and turn green again? Will that be the first sign they are coming around?

DO NOT THROW ITR OUT. That is a big mistake that many do. It will remain brown and hard for some time. When you see the pink roots that start to grow you will know the Mangrove Pod is doing well again. It is VERY important to be patient. Many people want a "Miracle" solution to your problem. This is not that It is a Natural solution to many problems. .

For more information you can reference many articles at the Eastern PA Reef Club web site: WWW.EPARC.COM . And also on Albert Thiels web site: WWW.ATHIEL.COM And on GARFS Web Site: WWW.GARF.ORG Thanks for your time and feel free to E-Mail me at: president@eparc.com

Thanks for the talk Bill!