Libertaria

The off-topic forum for members to chat and discuss non-reefkeeping topics. Be warned that this forum is not for the easily offended.

Moderators: asmith, Admins

Re: Libertaria

Postby GratefulDiver » June 14th, 2018, 7:41 am

Podman wrote:But I do wonder how you both fail to see how people like this **** in the article would thrive in a world where there were no regulations placed on hiring employing. All it takes is one guy down the street deciding that he needs to cut his employees pay to compete with the **** that pays his simpleton next to nothing.


And yet with all of our existing laws it still happens. Hmm.......

And you still haven't explained how this **** would thrive. - Just some whackadoo belief that he would.
User avatar
GratefulDiver
{squat}
 
Posts: 15223
Joined: December 17th, 2002, 11:49 pm
Location: Somwhere between Kathmandu & Kalamazoo

Re: Libertaria

Postby Podman » June 14th, 2018, 2:02 pm

GratefulDiver wrote:
Podman wrote:But I do wonder how you both fail to see how people like this **** in the article would thrive in a world where there were no regulations placed on hiring employing. All it takes is one guy down the street deciding that he needs to cut his employees pay to compete with the **** that pays his simpleton next to nothing.


And yet with all of our existing laws it still happens. Hmm.......

And you still haven't explained how this **** would thrive. - Just some whackadoo belief that he would.


This is where it becomes apparent that some people, you in this instance, don't actually want a discussion on these topics.. If I am to be burdened with explaining how one business can gain an advantage over another by having free labor, what will be the next task you lay out for me? Maybe proving manual labor typically comes at a cost to the employer? Or maybe ask me to prove that legalizing this particular behavior will have an effect on how common the behavior will be seen?

Its all **** tactics to keep me spinning while you hurl insults for reasons I don't fully understand.

But thanks for adding a few new ones.
User avatar
Podman
{squat}
 
Posts: 7936
Joined: July 15th, 2002, 2:13 am
Location: Portlandia

Re: Libertaria

Postby GratefulDiver » June 18th, 2018, 8:02 am

So like the rest of Libtardia these days, its all about the feels then?

No need to rationalize anything, no need to think it through, just FEELING that something might be is enough to make it fjact.

You made a statement, numbnards, now back it up.

I've already pointed out one simple philosophy of the party that disproves it, you haven't inched even that far away from your fairy tale.

I'm not asking you to do anything but prove you can actually think on an objective level, for yourself instead of spewing the usual party line ****.

Just bear in mind, I didn't stop voting Dem for nuthin but the feels.... (Go 'head, dig back in some of my earliest posts here. Think I'm anti-Obama, check out some of the **** I said about GW....)

Your troll has no basis in fact. Yet I'm the one playing **** tactics. :lol:
User avatar
GratefulDiver
{squat}
 
Posts: 15223
Joined: December 17th, 2002, 11:49 pm
Location: Somwhere between Kathmandu & Kalamazoo

Re: Libertaria

Postby Podman » June 18th, 2018, 2:27 pm

You have disproven something? I read again and all I have seen you do is hurl insults and conjecture upon what I may or may not believe.
Libertarianism, like most “ism”s I can think of are ideologies and paradigms that exist because the facts alone are not enough to base a course of action.. by their very nature they are difficult or even impossible to prove and/or disprove by fact. I am not saying they are based upon feelings, I am saying they are opinionated things.. and if you want my opinion that is based upon factual evidence I will gladly express them.

In Libertarian ideology as I understand it, the only government regulations a Libertarian wants to leave intact are the ones that are absolutely necessary for society to remain intact.
These are things like infrastructure, military, govt. accountings, etc.. Most social programs are meant to be scrapped.
The idea is that by disassembling all the bureaucratic and corrupt mechanisms within the system there will be more funding for the productive members of society and therefore growth and ingenuity will prevail and advance society to new heights, etc.

Am I close?

The huge glaring fault I see in this view is that there will always be people like the asshat in this article (companies can behave even worse); they will always lie, cheat and steal their way for better personal gains. If you need evidence that these people exist then I don’t have time for this conversation.

Now, I don’t dispute that there might be a lot of libertarian types of agenda that would be highly beneficial to our society. I am sure we could use trimming of dead wood within our government and some things are likely best left alone without regulation. But I do think Libertarianism is fundamentally flawed with its widely held belief that fairness and order will somehow establish itself by some natural means.
For example, libertarians seem to really hate welfare (I don’t think it’s good for everyone either) but I think to responsibly dismantle the welfare system in America we need to know that the people with legitimate needs for that system are going to be taken care of.. So short of replacing the current system with a better one which I have never heard a Libertarian support, we are left with a need to trust that the average citizen will charitably help these folks out of the kindness of their own hearts..
I don’t think enough people would be willing to do this, do you?

Or how about resposibly dismantling the EPA and its laws? For this people would have to trust that companies will behave ethically and not poison our environment without the imposed regulations.
I don’t trust them to do this, do you?

I could go on but its time to go back to work and I have my doubts that you are really listening anyway.
User avatar
Podman
{squat}
 
Posts: 7936
Joined: July 15th, 2002, 2:13 am
Location: Portlandia

Re: Libertaria

Postby GratefulDiver » June 19th, 2018, 8:19 am

Podman wrote:Am I close?

No and the reason why is..

Podman wrote:In Libertarian ideology as I understand it, the only government regulations a Libertarian wants to leave intact are the ones that are absolutely necessary for society to remain intact.

This is an extremist view. Which of course, other 'isms' will propagate in ways that fit their agenda. Don't be that guy.

Podman wrote:Most social programs are meant to be scrapped.

Again, extremist. Most rational people are well aware that without a safety net hungry people will resort to heinous actions. That these actions are all but completely absent from our society (minus mental health issues) speaks volumes to the cry of starvation in this country.. That instead it can be readily and easily observed that these programs are abused also speaks volumes to their bloated an inefficient management. Plainly, they need to be revamped or at the very least, tweaked to minimize these abuses that have been occurring for decades.

Podman wrote:The huge glaring fault I see in this view is that there will always be people like the asshat in this article (companies can behave even worse); they will always lie, cheat and steal their way for better personal gains. If you need evidence that these people exist then I don’t have time for this conversation.

I pointed this out in a previous reply and if we cannot agree that this will happen regardless of the 'ism' in power, then I don't have time....

Podman wrote:But I do think Libertarianism is fundamentally flawed with its widely held belief that fairness and order will somehow establish itself by some natural means.

Congratulations, you are now regurgitating false propaganda. If you're happy being that guy, you win the day! If not, you might want to reconsider what sources you choose to believe.. (If you're getting this from individuals that you know personally, you might want to consider how you are interpreting what they are saying or if that message is clear you now have a better idea what stance that individual has. - But it is by no means a "widely held belief" else there would be few in this 'ism' who would place such high value in maintaining their CPL...)

Podman wrote:So short of replacing the current system with a better one which I have never heard a Libertarian support, we are left with a need to trust that the average citizen will charitably help these folks out of the kindness of their own hearts..
I don’t think enough people would be willing to do this, do you?

My view on 'the system' was touched on above. It should be tweaked, not scrapped. As to charity & voluntarism, I think an actual LEADER and not our current rout of **** 'bosses' that have taken hold could inspire this without placing dictatorial policies in place that fly in the face of the Constitution..

Podman wrote:Or how about resposibly dismantling the EPA and its laws? For this people would have to trust that companies will behave ethically and not poison our environment without the imposed regulations.
I don’t trust them to do this, do you?

Responsibility and the EPA, two words that should not be used together. -- See here --
I don't feel the current system is working, do you?
User avatar
GratefulDiver
{squat}
 
Posts: 15223
Joined: December 17th, 2002, 11:49 pm
Location: Somwhere between Kathmandu & Kalamazoo

Re: Libertaria

Postby Podman » June 19th, 2018, 11:06 am

If being “that guy” means I will try to take people at their word then yeah, I will be “that guy”.
..And it’s not propaganda when so many people that identify as Libertarian speak this way. I don’t have to look any farther than the sump to find people that have spoken this way. Beaslbob said that in his Libertarian future handicapped and mentally ill will find the help they need through churches and family members.. so maybe you are the outlier?.. or is he the extremist that’s full of false propaganda?

If we can agree on anything its that our present system is **** up. As of the last ten years or so I am now convinced that while these types of conversations can be interesting, they really would have little to no effect on improving society if the right one was implemented. The lobbyists will ensure that their interests are the ones best taken care of and in the end the working saps will be the ones that pay.
User avatar
Podman
{squat}
 
Posts: 7936
Joined: July 15th, 2002, 2:13 am
Location: Portlandia

Re: Libertaria

Postby GratefulDiver » June 20th, 2018, 8:06 am

Podman wrote:If we can agree on anything its that our present system is **** up.

Yep.

So your stance is that you will just keep doing the same ****.

Roger that.

Toodles.
User avatar
GratefulDiver
{squat}
 
Posts: 15223
Joined: December 17th, 2002, 11:49 pm
Location: Somwhere between Kathmandu & Kalamazoo

Re: Libertaria

Postby GratefulDiver » June 20th, 2018, 8:39 am

Oh, sorry one last, a nice little quote from a Libertarian on FB..
You can generalize every political party from it's dumbest members if you want to make yourself feel better.


Not at all to say I don't make stupid ass comments from time to time. - We're all human and so far, we're still the ones to build the machines as well. Mistakes will be made. But to not make the effort to improve..... Thats just **** insanity.
User avatar
GratefulDiver
{squat}
 
Posts: 15223
Joined: December 17th, 2002, 11:49 pm
Location: Somwhere between Kathmandu & Kalamazoo

Re: Libertaria

Postby _Andy » June 20th, 2018, 5:45 pm

YOU TWO ARE KILLING THE SUMP!!
User avatar
_Andy
{squat}
 
Posts: 70596
Joined: September 22nd, 2006, 8:58 am

Re: Libertaria

Postby Lawdawg » June 21st, 2018, 5:32 am

TRIGGERED
minime wrote:A well-flung crab is an ugly thing to be on the receiving end of.
User avatar
Lawdawg
{squat}
 
Posts: 19344
Joined: May 19th, 2003, 3:23 pm

Re: Libertaria

Postby _Andy » June 21st, 2018, 2:04 pm

HAIR TRIGGERED!
User avatar
_Andy
{squat}
 
Posts: 70596
Joined: September 22nd, 2006, 8:58 am

Re: Libertaria

Postby Lawdawg » June 21st, 2018, 5:19 pm

HARE TRIGGERED

http://dai.ly/x2mvoj7
minime wrote:A well-flung crab is an ugly thing to be on the receiving end of.
User avatar
Lawdawg
{squat}
 
Posts: 19344
Joined: May 19th, 2003, 3:23 pm

Re: Libertaria

Postby beaslbob » June 25th, 2018, 4:55 pm

_Andy wrote:YOU TWO ARE KILLING THE SUMP!!

Sump's already dead. LOL
since 79 ~12 fw leidens , ~8 years FO salt, mixed reef, Currently-10g FW leiden (30 fish) since 2002, 55g display mixed reef since 2003, 20g Fw leiden from oct 2006. 29g mixed reef since 2005. Very strong emphasis on the tank maintaining itself. tap water, no water changes.
beaslbob
{squat}
 
Posts: 6328
Joined: September 1st, 2004, 9:54 am
Location: huntsville, al

Re: Libertaria

Postby beaslbob » June 25th, 2018, 4:58 pm

I'm glad to see a thread lasting more than a couple of posts anyway.

I find it very hard to believe that being opposed to taking success from some to give to the more equal others and the federal government controlling everything equates to assault, violence, treating people like animals and the like.
since 79 ~12 fw leidens , ~8 years FO salt, mixed reef, Currently-10g FW leiden (30 fish) since 2002, 55g display mixed reef since 2003, 20g Fw leiden from oct 2006. 29g mixed reef since 2005. Very strong emphasis on the tank maintaining itself. tap water, no water changes.
beaslbob
{squat}
 
Posts: 6328
Joined: September 1st, 2004, 9:54 am
Location: huntsville, al

Re: Libertaria

Postby Podman » June 28th, 2018, 1:44 pm

beaslbob wrote:I'm glad to see a thread lasting more than a couple of posts anyway.

I find it very hard to believe that being opposed to taking success from some to give to the more equal others and the federal government controlling everything equates to assault, violence, treating people like animals and the like.


Not sure what you mean to say.. as far as I know there isn't a correct usage for the term "more equal".

But I would guess you meant to say that liberals want to take success (AKA money, in some's view) away from the working half of society and spread it among the lesser half on the grounds that conservatives are treating them like animals?

If this is what you meant to say it is a ridiculous take on what lefties want in their society.
User avatar
Podman
{squat}
 
Posts: 7936
Joined: July 15th, 2002, 2:13 am
Location: Portlandia

Re: Libertaria

Postby PitPat » June 28th, 2018, 3:41 pm

Podman wrote: as far as I know there isn't a correct usage for the term "more equal".



Image
This post was made by PitPat who is currently on your ignore list. Display this post.
User avatar
PitPat
{squat}
 
Posts: 5732
Joined: September 20th, 2000, 1:01 am
Location: Iowa City

Re: Libertaria

Postby Podman » June 28th, 2018, 4:20 pm

I stand corrected :oops:
User avatar
Podman
{squat}
 
Posts: 7936
Joined: July 15th, 2002, 2:13 am
Location: Portlandia

Re: Libertaria

Postby beaslbob » June 28th, 2018, 4:25 pm

PitPat wrote:
Podman wrote: as far as I know there isn't a correct usage for the term "more equal".



Image



LOL

from animal farm.


and probably paraphrasing.

What was originally

" all animals are equal"

was later amended to:

all animals are equal but some animals are more equal.
since 79 ~12 fw leidens , ~8 years FO salt, mixed reef, Currently-10g FW leiden (30 fish) since 2002, 55g display mixed reef since 2003, 20g Fw leiden from oct 2006. 29g mixed reef since 2005. Very strong emphasis on the tank maintaining itself. tap water, no water changes.
beaslbob
{squat}
 
Posts: 6328
Joined: September 1st, 2004, 9:54 am
Location: huntsville, al

Re: Libertaria

Postby beaslbob » June 28th, 2018, 4:30 pm

Podman wrote:
beaslbob wrote:I'm glad to see a thread lasting more than a couple of posts anyway.

I find it very hard to believe that being opposed to taking success from some to give to the more equal others and the federal government controlling everything equates to assault, violence, treating people like animals and the like.


Not sure what you mean to say.. as far as I know there isn't a correct usage for the term "more equal".

But I would guess you meant to say that liberals want to take success (AKA money, in some's view) away from the working half of society and spread it among the lesser half on the grounds that conservatives are treating them like animals?

If this is what you meant to say it is a ridiculous take on what lefties want in their society.


Well perhaps you can fill me in on the effects of things like the progressive tax and other wealth redistribution schemes and the constant class warfare cries of the lefties?

Please explain how come somone who is less successful deserves the success of the more successful. Sounds to me like those people are more equal.
since 79 ~12 fw leidens , ~8 years FO salt, mixed reef, Currently-10g FW leiden (30 fish) since 2002, 55g display mixed reef since 2003, 20g Fw leiden from oct 2006. 29g mixed reef since 2005. Very strong emphasis on the tank maintaining itself. tap water, no water changes.
beaslbob
{squat}
 
Posts: 6328
Joined: September 1st, 2004, 9:54 am
Location: huntsville, al

Re: Libertaria

Postby Podman » June 28th, 2018, 6:32 pm

beaslbob wrote:
Well perhaps you can fill me in on the effects of things like the progressive tax and other wealth redistribution schemes and the constant class warfare cries of the lefties?


I suppose I could employ the Grateful Diver defense on your progressive tax question and just say that since no one is suffering to the point of upheaval then everything must be ok... but then I have first hand knowledge of how closed minded that can sound so allow me to say this instead; I don't mind a progressive tax that can be employed at varying rates in order to keep the middle class in healthy numbers.

I would gladly support a flat tax rate if the result would be something other than the wealthiest Americans becoming even wealthier and the poorest becoming greater in number.. which is the trend with the current progressive taxes in place.
And although I am solidly planted within the middle class, I do believe that I would feel the same if I were to make millions per year. My backing isn't about me getting paid, it's about living in a healthy, happy society.

IMHO, a true lefty values equality above personal gain. Do you think celebrities like George Clooney and Tom Hanks are politically active for the paycheck?



Please explain how come somone who is less successful deserves the success of the more successful. Sounds to me like those people are more equal.


You seem to think that money is synonomous with success.. If that were true then people like Paris Hilton should have performed some sort of feat. What has she ever achieved?

IMO,the US has never lacked conservative minded people that think they are better than those that make less. Our country seems chock full of people proclaiming to be 'self-made millionaires'. These guys like to watch Fox News and bitch about lazy people that won't simply pull themselves out of the muck.
The true upper class have these guys gaslit.. all their obsessing about how the liberals want to take all the rich man's money without ever working for it.. if weren't for the leftists they would be at the bottom of the barrel with their despised lazy people.
User avatar
Podman
{squat}
 
Posts: 7936
Joined: July 15th, 2002, 2:13 am
Location: Portlandia

PreviousNext

Return to The Sump

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest